[1/14] from: rebol:techscribe at: 15-Mar-2001 23:25
Hi David, let's make REBOL succeed! Elan David Vydra wrote:
[2/14] from: dvydra2::yahoo::com at: 15-Mar-2001 23:54
Elan, Do you have any specific suggestions? How about a REBOL conference? David --- Elan <[rebol--techscribe--com]> wrote:
> Hi David, > let's make REBOL succeed!
<<quoted lines omitted: 98>>> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
===== please reply to: [david--vydra--net]
[3/14] from: rebol:techscribe at: 16-Mar-2001 11:04
Hi David, a few suggestions: 1. Open Source Applications I don't have the time (right now) to pursue this, but REBOL stands to gain in exposure if there are Open Source REBOL projects advertised on SourceForge, SlashDot, FreshMeat, etc. The challenge is to identify attractive, feature-rich applications (backend designs for Websites, for instance), provide intelligent configuration, and processing dialect that enable an interested developer to easily adapt the application to his needs, and actively pursue their implementation. 2. REBOL based productivity tools for popular programming languages: REBOL enables you to easily design dialect based CASE tools that can simplify the construction of programs in other programming languages emphasizing platform independence and reusability (across platforms). By platforms I means programming language platforms, not only hardware platforms. Tools that target the PHP, Java, and ASP community and provide language independence and portability are likely to expose a tremendous number of programmers to REBOL. 3. Traditional commercial applications that integrate REBOL as an automation language. Commercial applications whose success is thoroughly advertised to manager/investor/business media to make the financers and decision makers listen up. Requires financing and support from the REBOL community. David Vydra wrote:
[4/14] from: dvydra2:y:ahoo at: 15-Mar-2001 22:23
Christian, Thanks for informing us about Curl. After spending an hour looking at it, I am sure that: 1. I like REBOL better in most cases 2. I am worried about REBOL's future Why $52M? For the marketing department, of course. We have all seen many great technologies shelved due to competitors better marketing. My personal complaints for REBOL are: 1. R/View is not marketed as a GUI component for large client/server systems, specifically servers written in Java. 2. REBOL is not being ported to Java. Curl announced their intention to do so. <reflecting> Several years ago, I joined Forte Software, which had technically the best solution for 3-tier client/server systems. When Sun announced their Java EJB spec, Forte stock plummeted from $40 to $3. Ironically, Sun bought the company for $20/share a few years later, but the original Forte TOOL language seems to be dying off. Forte was very proprietory -- not a single book on the TOOL language has been published, so REBOL is doing better in that department. For all of the evils of Java, one has to admit that there are many useful toolkits available, a few very nice IDEs and Java does run on more platforms than REBOL. </reflecting> I hope 2 years from now I will program in REBOL, not Curl. Regards, David --- Christian Langreiter <[c--langreiter--synerge--at]> wrote:
> Curl seems to be quite similar in scope and > direction to REBOL:
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
===== please reply to: [david--vydra--net]
[5/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 16-Mar-2001 7:48
David Vydra wrote:
> Christian, > Thanks for informing us about Curl. After spending an
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>> large client/server systems, specifically servers > written in Java.
OK - as for Rebol strategy (and I hope Dan reads it to correct me if I am wrong :-): 1) If I understand it correctly - Express is the priority - it's very good product imo for small-to-middle businesses 2) Carl once said Rebol is complementary technology to web ones ...., so I think we need - a) /shell and /library /at least for non-commercial purposes) ASAP to become part of /Core, /View (or it's replacement /Link lite), to allow community in general spread the word about Rebol and its coolness! b) develop and market /Apache module - few reviews would help. The scenario could possibly be: - if /shell and /library are present in /Core, basic /Apache could be free - I am not sure when/if rebol plans on module support, as Jeff once expressed it could help /Apache performance (technical reasons) - /Apache based upon /Command - proper SQL support, with paid technical assistance from RT. The solution for RT is to have dynamic components and per-component pricing. RT expressed themselves its the way they want to go, it just needs time to get there .... c) RT released beta of browser plug-in. It just knows how to launch Rebol, once .r file is invoked via URL, or website contains some specific code IIRC, but it lacks one very serious feature, which WILL imo have direct impact on acceptance of such plug-in - it can't draw inside browser's window. Maybe I am wrong but I regard it pretty essential issue. PPL regard everything what's displayed in their browser being standard. 3) Rebol for Java? The discussion was here already :-) Well, we all know Rebol is way cooler than Java. We all know Java takes some 10MB. But ppl don't care of it's size, once they get it with OS/browser install. Rebol for Java or Rebol for Tao Elate could higher general language acceptance ... 4) in some earlier Rebol days, there was some metnion of Rebol Command Toolkit - Rebol in form of libraries. I am not sure if it is technically possible, but if developers could invoke rebol scripts directly from C or Java code, while there would be some kind of API to allow work with some of Rebol datatypes directly (using /library we have to copy all data here and there, no chance to tell library to do something with rebol block directly e.g.) ... but here I just guess what could be possible ....
> <reflecting> > Several years ago, I joined Forte Software, which had
<<quoted lines omitted: 12>>> REBOL. > </reflecting>
Your reflection is good example that sometimes we need more tactics than what product/technology excelence itself means ....
> I hope 2 years from now I will program in REBOL, not > Curl. >
We all hope so ;-) Cheers, -pekr-
[6/14] from: c:langreiter:synerge:at at: 14-Mar-2001 19:50
Curl seems to be quite similar in scope and direction to REBOL: http://www.cag.lcs.mit.edu/curl/wwwpaper.html http://www.curl.com They just got $52m in funding. Any opinions? Best regards, Chris
[7/14] from: jamesh:volition-inc at: 14-Mar-2001 13:48
> http://www.cag.lcs.mit.edu/curl/wwwpaper.html > http://www.curl.com > > They just got $52m in funding. > > Any opinions?
Hmmm...this kind of thing seems to be quite frequent :) My gut reactions: 1. It is more academic feeling, right down to the developers thinking being like TeX is a good thing :) 2. They are much more interested in being object-oriented, which I don't see as a good thing. 3. The screenshots were of the horribly ugly UNIX UI variety :) There are a lot of languages out there with ties to the web---Perl, Ruby, Python, Erlang--and just as many others with lots of good ideas, like Objective Caml, Lisp, and Prolog. What the REBOL developers got right is a brilliant combination of smallness, expressiveness, and usefulness, plus a distinct lack of language designer curmudgeonliness. It may not be the best language for all purposes, but it is perhaps the best balance of what is needed to be productive. James
[8/14] from: jbone:jump at: 14-Mar-2001 13:57
So how the hell do you get $52M in funding for implementing Scheme in a browser plug-in, with curly braces replacing parens and a TeX rip-off DOM? :shakes head in amazement... jb Christian Langreiter wrote:
[9/14] from: depotcity:home at: 14-Mar-2001 12:14
How do you get 52M for reinventing the wheel? TB
[10/14] from: ryan:christiansen:intellisol at: 14-Mar-2001 14:31
It may not be the best language for all purposes, but it is perhaps the best balance of what is needed to be productive. Perfectly said. May I use this in my sig file? :) Ryan C. Christiansen Web Developer Intellisol International 4733 Amber Valley Parkway Fargo, ND 58104 701-235-3390 ext. 6671 FAX: 701-235-9940 http://www.intellisol.com Global Leader in People Performance Software _____________________________________ Confidentiality Notice This message may contain privileged and confidential information. If you think, for any reason, that this message may have been addressed to you in error, you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it, and we would ask you to notify us immediately by return email to [ryan--christiansen--intellisol--com] James Hague <[jamesh--volitio] To: "['rebol-list--rebol--com']" <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> n-inc.com> cc: Sent by: Subject: [REBOL] Re: Curl [rebol-bounce--re] bol.com 03/14/2001 01:48 PM Please respond to rebol-list
[11/14] from: jamesh:volition-inc at: 14-Mar-2001 14:52
> "It may not be the best language for all purposes, but it is > perhaps the > best balance of what is > needed to be productive." > > Perfectly said. May I use this in my sig file? :)
Heh. Feel free.
[12/14] from: jseq:mediaone at: 14-Mar-2001 15:59
[13/14] from: gjones05:mail:orion at: 15-Mar-2001 5:49
From: John Sequeira
> As a new language junkie, I'm beta testing Curl right now, and I've
> written my first few rebol scripts. Here's some quick thoughts from a > newbie.
<huge snip> Thanks, John. That was a very helpful language comparison. I ran across Curl a few days ago and was looking for a quick overview that would allow comparison. Amazingly, Curl has stayed below slashdot's radar screen. Out of curiosity, is it apparent how the Curl folks will be handling shell access and library/dll access? Have they revealed how they intend to make money off the venture? Will the current beta that will soon be released as a product be "sold"? Just curious if it is apparent. --Scott Jones
[14/14] from: chris:langreiter at: 15-Mar-2001 14:00
> Amazingly, Curl has stayed below slashdot's radar screen.
It already gets its share of flames on FoRK ;-)
> Have they revealed how they intend to make > money off the venture? Will the current beta that will soon be released > as a product be "sold"? Just curious if it is apparent.
On their developer site they say something along the lines of "Uhm, open-source great, foundation of the web, will open-source something don't know yet what, non-commercial use will remain free, commercial use will be metered (!) - [by kB transmitted or 'saved', not yet clear to me] - and that's how we'll make $1b/yr." - So well. Nevertheless, the system has some nice aspects - especially the Graphics components _seem_ to be more powerful than R/V's. However, they don't even have anything XML-related in the package - and neither I've seen sound support ... but why bothering about an "application environment" then?! Thanks for the opinions, Chris
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