Where are the dialects?
[1/10] from: brett::codeconscious::com at: 10-Jul-2001 18:38
One of the strengths of Rebol is the support for the creation of
mini-languages, or more fundamentally the fact that a block is an
unevaluated store of data that can be interpreted in different ways for
different contexts.
My frustration with myself is that I've not been able to capitalise on these
qualities of the language as much as I should have (probably too much other
coding experience constrains the mind). The thing is though, I haven't seen
a lot of examples on the list either.
Obviously those at RT are switched on to it (Vid, make-doc, Zork like game
by Jeff).
I'd be grateful if people could share any insights, breakthroughs,
applications, whatever on this topic. I need help to get my mind onto the
possibilities of Rebol rather than *just* using it as a programming
language. :)
Regards,
Brett
[2/10] from: fsievert:uos at: 10-Jul-2001 12:02
I implemented a lego-dialect. You can control a Lego-Cybermaster
Robot, and write and download programs on it.
http://proton.cl-ki.uni-osnabrueck.de/REBOL/lego.r
You can have a look at math-do.r at
http://proton.cl-ki.uni-osnabrueck.de/REBOL/math-do.r
Which shows, how to use my parser-object (Observer-Model) for implementing
dialects.
My irc-protocol uses a dialect to produce irc-messages
http://proton.cl-ki.uni-osnabrueck.de/REBOL/irc-protocol.r
REBlog is a prolog-dialect for REBOL
http://proton.cl-ki.uni-osnabrueck.de/REBOL/reblog.r
(new version comming soon, i hope :)
CU,
Frank
[3/10] from: brett:codeconscious at: 10-Jul-2001 21:05
That's excellent Frank. I confess it will take me a little while to
understand what you have done.
Any reflections on the process having completed these?
Brett.
[4/10] from: joel:neely:fedex at: 10-Jul-2001 10:18
Hi, Brett,
Brett Handley wrote:
> One of the strengths of Rebol is the support for the creation
> of mini-languages, or more fundamentally the fact that a block
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> get my mind onto the possibilities of Rebol rather than *just*
> using it as a programming language. :)
No grandiose claims here (TMTOWTDI), but you might find the
GENERATE-DATA dialect article useful. It can be found at
http://www.rebolforces.com/zine/rzine-1-02.html#sect7.
HTH!
-jn-
--
My hero, zero. Such a funny little hero,
But till you came along, we counted on our fingers and toes.
-- Schoolhouse Rock (1973)
joelDOTneelyATfedexDOTcom
[5/10] from: brett:codeconscious at: 11-Jul-2001 10:11
Thanks Joel !
> No grandiose claims here (TMTOWTDI), but you might find the
> GENERATE-DATA dialect article useful. It can be found at
Like I asked Frank, having completed the dialect do you have any reflections
on the process?
BTW, What does "TMTOWTDI" mean - this is one dialect I cannot fathom.
Brett.
[6/10] from: joel:neely:fedex at: 10-Jul-2001 14:51
Brett Handley wrote:
> Thanks Joel !
>
> > No grandiose claims here (TMTOWTDI), but you might find
> > the GENERATE-DATA dialect article useful...
>
> Like I asked Frank, having completed the dialect do you
> have any reflections on the process?
>
PRO: - It's very nice to be able quickly to craft a mini-
language for a specific problem domain.
- The effectiveness of such a mini-language depends on
having a "critical mass" of processes that are enough
alike to make extracting the engine worthwhile.
CON: - Deciding on the syntax of the mini-language can be
the hardest part (I punted on this and stayed at the
"assembler" level rather than trying to create an
entire high-level language).
- The classic trade-off between generality and speed;
a custom-crafted solution is usually faster, but also
more work to maintain/extend; a general solution is
more flexible but not as fast.
- The biggest danger of becoming too context-dependent
IMHO is the potential confusion from overloading the
terms that have different meanings inside the dialect
than outside, and from having unmet expectations set
up by the choice of common terms with everyday "baggage".
REBOL certainly has the chops to make dialecting a more
feasible practice than most languages. (Ever tried to use
lex/yacc with TLTMNBN?)
> BTW, What does "TMTOWTDI" mean - this is one dialect I
> cannot fathom.
>
(T)here's (M)ore (T)han (O)ne (W)ay (T)o (D)o (I)t -- it's a
well-known camel utterance (camel being the mascot of Perl ;-)
-jn-
---------------------------------------------------------------
There are two types of science: physics and stamp collecting!
-- Sir Arthur Eddington
joel-dot-neely-at-fedex-dot-com
[7/10] from: fsievert:uos at: 11-Jul-2001 8:29
> Any reflections on the process having completed these?
Yes. One interesting point: When I started working on the lego-protocol, i
just wanted to do something like "motor left on" etc. to control the robot
directly. A non-dialecting sollution might look like:
lego/motors/left/power 10
lego/motors/left/start
But I decidet for dialecing:
insert lego [motor left power 10 start]
But after a while I wanted to extend the protocol to download tasks that
run on the robot itself. Now I was able to allow:
insert lego [
task 0 [
motor left power 10 start
.....
]
]
And, of course, you have variables, too.
This would look ugly if there were no dialecting. The reason is that it is
no longer commands, what I write down, but data. Method-Invocations are
more like commands, which are evaluated at invocation-time. Also they
are often used to represent data-structures. (Like building a
user-interface with java-awt). Dialecting allowes it to write down data
more elegant and more explicit.
CU,
Frank
[8/10] from: brett:codeconscious at: 11-Jul-2001 18:30
Thank you Joel and Frank thank for you scripts and comments.
I hope that there are more responses from the list, I think is an area of
Rebol that is underdeveloped for many (me included).
It would be great also, to see some discussions on the list on how to
approach a problem when dialecting is the tool for solving it. What to think
about, how to structure the grammar. Etc.
Thanks again.
Brett.
[9/10] from: allenk:powerup:au at: 11-Jul-2001 22:22
Brett,
Ingo runs through the process of creating his TUI dialect
http://www.rebolforces.com/articles/tui-dialect.html
For me the simplest example of a creating a dialect was the one Carl did for
the Dr. Dobbs (July 2000 Distributed Computing) issue. Sadly that issue
isn't available on-line, but the accompanying code is at
http://www.ddj.com/ftp/2000/2000_07/rebol.txt
Cheers,
Allen K
[10/10] from: dvydra2:y:ahoo at: 14-Jul-2001 11:01
Brett,
At my last job I've used rebol to implement a
translator from a REBOL dialect to XML.
This can be useful for systems that take XML input,
but you want to to create scripts in a more
english-like sysntax.
XML:
<create type='Customer' is='C1'>
<field name='name'>AT&T</field>
<field name='address'>Somewhere in Jersey</field>
<field name='salesrep'>
<lookup type='SalesRepresentative'>
<key name='country'>US</key>
<key name='state-or-province'>NJ</key>
</lookup>
</field>
</create>
REBOL Dialect:
create Customer as C1
name = "AT&T"
address = "Somewhere in Jersey"
salesrep = [SalesRepresentative
with country = "US" and state = "NJ"]
Regards,
David
--- Brett Handley <[brett--codeconscious--com]> wrote:
> One of the strengths of Rebol is the support for the
> creation of
<<quoted lines omitted: 27>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the
> subject, without the quotes.
=====
David Vydra
www.vydra.net
david (at) vydra (dot) net
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