dbms3.r
[1/9] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 13-Jan-2002 19:42
Hello Petr!
On 13-Gen-02, you wrote:
PK> - next Rebol update should also introduce
PK> new port type, with ability to perform seek upon direct
PK> opened port, maybe you would want to wait for this one?
I've been waiting, but now I need it so I'll go with it and
improve in the future.
PK> The problem with native Rebol dbms is - robustness and
PK> stability - locking, several processes working with one db at
That's not my goal. I'll use MySQL when I'll need these features;
but if I'm writing something like an address book, but complicated
enough to require a relational db, I want to use something like
dbms.r.
PK> library, so really small, available currently for many
Really small? Compared to dbms.r? ;-)
PK> platforms. Maybe we could adopt that one? It features the
PK> same interface as full mySQL version ...
Too much complexity. Let's stay simple!
PK> PS: of course I don't want you to leave your current thoughts
PK> and work, just a suggestion to look at external solution not
PK> necessarily reinventing the wheel ...
I still think a small REBOL dbms can be useful. I've been using
MySQL a lot, and I'm not going to abandon it... but it's not
always the best solution IMHO.
Regards,
Gabriele.
--
Gabriele Santilli <[giesse--writeme--com]> - Amigan - REBOL programmer
Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila -- http://www.amyresource.it/AGI/
[2/9] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 13-Jan-2002 23:17
Gabriele Santilli wrote:
>Hello Petr!
>
>I still think a small REBOL dbms can be useful. I've been using
>MySQL a lot, and I'm not going to abandon it... but it's not
>always the best solution IMHO.
>
OK, I can now see your point - however - starting to build dbms system
and allowing it to be only one-user-per-time system, ie no locking, no
concurency, etc., is a mistake in its roots imo ... btw: what about
Elan's dbms system? Wasn't it "distributed"? We should look in its
principles then at least ...
... I started to build rebol dbms system in Rebol alpha (pre 1.0 days)
and I had it almost working. But then I was not satisfied and wanted
even more functionality, so I added another functionality ... and so on
... and so on ... in the end I found out, that what I want to have is
what I already had with my XBase systems - so I decided to stop the work
- too much complex for Rebol script level, reinventing the wheel....
If e.g. mySQL embedded (libmysqld) is free, small enough, but robust,
available in sources and already multiplatform, I can still see the
point to have a wrapper, and I will link to it one day, once I proceed
with my C lang knowledge. The main advantage is, that it is developed by
the whole community of dedicated programmers, so I can concentrate on
other things ... Maybe RT could license and pack it into rebol and we
would be done :-)
Just one question - where can I read more about your rdbms thoughts? I
would like to know more about it. For me the one and only view of dbms
is that of data consistency. We built our sales department IS in
CA-Visual Objects. It used XBase .dbf files and foxpro indices (.CDX).
We thought it was robust enough. We put our databases onto Novell
Netware server, and our users were connected thru old Token-Ring network
The network was problematic. We stopped the testing phase, because our
databases became complete mess in less than two weeks. Once you have
some even small cross table relationships, and you have not transaction
support and roll-backs, you are dead. Inconsistent data = dead data = no
data. NEVER AGAIN :-) No data corruption since we switched to Advantage
Database Server - the "complexity" outweights "simplicity" in factor
more than 1000 times for us ....
-pekr-
[3/9] from: mike:yaunish:home at: 14-Jan-2002 8:16
At 07:42 PM 13/01/02 +0200, you wrote:
>Hello Petr!
>On 13-Gen-02, you wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 20>>
>MySQL a lot, and I'm not going to abandon it... but it's not
>always the best solution IMHO.
I would agree. I have used both dbms.r and MySQL with REBOL and have
been fairly disappointed with the slow performance of MySQL.
If you need a small database with single user, very fast access then dbms.r
is the
way to go. As time goes by I am sure we will get a clearer idea where each
database system does best. After seeing the performance of MySQL I am keen to
see how far (read how big) dbms.r can take me.
[4/9] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 14-Jan-2002 13:13
Hi Petr,
Just to add another view...
<< Once you have some even small cross table relationships, and you have not
transaction
support and roll-backs, you are dead. >>
I think that depends on your needs, how you architect a system, and how you
use the tools available. I built a medium size system that dealt with
complex objects and we used a small ISAM database which allowed us to
persist them more easily than using an RDBMS. We had to account for the
relationships
and protection mechanisms to fit our needs, but it was a
much better solution for us, given that we were dealing with a small number
of large objects. Many relationships were implicit due to the object
hierarchy. We accomplished our goals with semaphores and had very few
incidents
even though we didn't have explicit transaction support built in
to our system.
--Gregg
[5/9] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 14-Jan-2002 21:35
Hello Petr!
On 14-Gen-02, you wrote:
PK> OK, I can now see your point - however - starting to build
PK> dbms system and allowing it to be only one-user-per-time
PK> system, ie no locking, no concurency, etc., is a mistake in
Well, the mistake is in calling it "dbms"... :-) I can change that
to THF (Table Handling Functions) or anything seems more
appropriate.
PK> btw: what about Elan's dbms system? Wasn't
PK> it "distributed"? We should look in its principles then at
PK> least ...
It stores the data in a way similar to dbms.r (a bit better,
actually). It has better handling of references between tables,
but they need to be hard-coded IIRC. The query system of dbms.r is
more powerful IMHO.
PK> had with my XBase systems - so I decided to stop the work -
PK> too much complex for Rebol script level, reinventing the
PK> wheel....
Indeed, but that is not what *I* want --- I already use MySQL when
I need it. I'd be satisfied with the current dbms.r if it was able
to handle more than 1000 rows per table without starting to be
extremely slow (due to the fact that filesystems are not designed
to have some thousands of files in a directory... :).
PK> ... Maybe RT could license and pack it into rebol and we
PK> would be done :-)
:-)
PK> Just one question - where can I read more about your rdbms
PK> thoughts? I would like to know more about it. For me the one
[...]
Well... it always depends on the goal you have. In your case, even
MySQL might be limited (you may need triggers and referential
integrity); personally, I think that the relational model is
starting to be old. It is very simple, so it is very good; but can
we do better? I have some ideas, but nothing that can be put into
practice yet.
Regards,
Gabriele.
--
Gabriele Santilli <[giesse--writeme--com]> - Amigan - REBOL programmer
Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila -- http://www.amyresource.it/AGI/
[6/9] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 14-Jan-2002 21:21
Hello pat665!
On 13-Gen-02, you wrote:
p> making a few suggestion ( for example a more secure way to
p> delete a record ), helping a bit for the documentation (FAQ,
Indeed, my slowness in fixing that bug was one of the reason to
begin this. Anyway, if you're still having problems (you shouldn't
with the workaound I provided I hope...), let me know and I'll
send you a fixed (but not tested) version.
Regards,
Gabriele.
--
Gabriele Santilli <[giesse--writeme--com]> - Amigan - REBOL programmer
Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila -- http://www.amyresource.it/AGI/
[7/9] from: rebol665:ifrance at: 15-Jan-2002 14:30
Hi Gabriele,
I have no problem anymore but I'll be glad to test your version.
Patrick
[8/9] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 2-Feb-2002 16:40
Hi!
FYI, development part 3 has been posted today to the new list.
Regards,
Gabriele.
--
Gabriele Santilli <[giesse--writeme--com]> - Amigan - REBOL programmer
Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila -- http://www.amyresource.it/AGI/
[9/9] from: louisaturk:eudoramail at: 3-Feb-2002 16:03
Sorry to have to ask, but I am not receiving all of the email to this list,
nor is all of my email being posted. I am beginning to wonder if I am
properly subscribed. How can I find out?
Anyway, I am very interest in the new db list. How does one subscribe to it?
Louis
At 04:40 PM 2/2/2002 +0200, you wrote:
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