Mailing List Archive: 49091 messages
  • Home
  • Script library
  • AltME Archive
  • Mailing list
  • Articles Index
  • Site search
 

CitrusWeb sample - so you want to edit?

 [1/15] from: luke::marmaladefoo::com at: 18-Mar-2004 17:48


Hi Folks Thanks for all the positive feedback - I'm glad that many of you seem to see where I'm coming from and where I want to go with this :-) Its been a long road, but its finally come together. A number of you have already registered on the sample pages, but seeing as you didnt have edit permissions yet, I have assigned you edit permissions. There is also a generic user for anyone who hasnt registered yet. You should be able to use this to log in directly: username: rebol-list password: rebol-list I have created a sandbox that you can all play in, and have enabled those that have registered so far to be able to edit in the sandbox. Please dont delete the content in there, as it will mean others cant see it. But you should be able to edit and create pages and folders. If everything gets messed up in the sandbox I will try to restore from scratch again. After some time this sample application will be taken down anyway. The sandbox that is open is all pages beneath http://www.marmaladefoo.com/cgi-bin/citrusweb/v02e_r4/viewer/citrusweb-sandbox The pages higher up are not editable (so this illustrates the user permissions model anyway!!) Best Wishes - Luke __________________________________________ Various gadgets widgets, links and chat http://www.marmaladefoo.com

 [2/15] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 18-Mar-2004 20:25


Luke Orlando Emmet wrote.. apparently on 18-Mar-2004/17:48:07
>Hi Folks > >Thanks for all the positive feedback - I'm glad that many >of you seem to see where I'm coming from and where I >want to go with this :-)
Hi Luke, As a long time Zope user, I really appreciate the thru the web editing. Dockimbel was working on a Medusa look alike for Rebol as well. I noticed this in the docs 1. Unpack the collection of scripts into a folder beneath the cgi-bin folder for your website (say cgi-bin/citrusweb/) Some web servers don't allow this .... can the sub folder be elsewhere, and does it have to be executable? Also, instead of Javascript navigation, what about the new plugin? -- Graham Chiu http://www.compkarori.com/cerebrus http://www.compkarori.com/rebolml

 [3/15] from: luke:marmaladefoo at: 19-Mar-2004 16:30


On 19 Mar 2004, at 8:51, Graham Chiu wrote:
> Hi Luke, > As a long time Zope user, I really appreciate the thru the
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> Some web servers don't allow this .... can the sub folder be > elsewhere, and does it have to be executable?
no - it can be somewhere else, but it is a CGI application, so you have to chmod to 755 if you are on Unix/Linux
> Also, instead of Javascript navigation, what about the new > plugin?
Err - not sure what you mean here... BTW - Javascript is not needed for day to day viewing, as a plain HTML table of contents is also generated. regards - Luke __________________________________________ Various gadgets widgets, links and chat http://www.marmaladefoo.com

 [4/15] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 19-Mar-2004 20:47


Luke Orlando Emmet wrote.. apparently on 19-Mar-2004/16:30:17
>On 19 Mar 2004, at 8:51, Graham Chiu wrote: >> >> Also, instead of Javascript navigation, what about the new >> plugin? > >Err - not sure what you mean here...
http://www.rebol.net/plugin/tests/test.html To use the new Rebol browser plug in to replace the javascript navigation tool you have... -- Graham Chiu http://www.compkarori.com/cerebrus http://www.compkarori.com/rebolml

 [5/15] from: carl:cybercraft at: 19-Mar-2004 21:13


On 20-Mar-04, Graham Chiu wrote:
> Luke Orlando Emmet wrote.. apparently on 19-Mar-2004/16:30:17 >> On 19 Mar 2004, at 8:51, Graham Chiu wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> To use the new Rebol browser plug in to replace the javascript > navigation tool you have...
I wouldn't use it as a replacement just yet. As an alternative for sure, but until it's available for all the major browsers on Windows, Linux and Mac, javascript shouldn't be dropped for editing. Other people's experiences will differ, but take a look at this litte thread... http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbthread.pl/space/expand/176 as an example of the hassles of believing that 90% of everyone uses Windows & IE. -- Carl Read

 [6/15] from: atruter:labyrinth:au at: 20-Mar-2004 9:42


> I wouldn't use it as a replacement just yet. As an alternative for > sure, but until it's available for all the major browsers on Windows,
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> as an example of the hassles of believing that 90% of everyone uses > Windows & IE.
Or that 90% of everyone uses an x86 device. Cell-phones and PDAs anyone? Regards, Ashley

 [7/15] from: ed:brittlestar at: 19-Mar-2004 21:18


Carl Read wrote:
> Other people's experiences will differ, but take a look at this litte > thread... > > http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbthread.pl/space/expand/176 > > as an example of the hassles of believing that 90% of everyone uses > Windows & IE.
Statistically, it is quite credible that over 90% of the desktop public uses Windows and IE (based on random sampling). However, if one or more of the following apply: - you can name a platform other than Windows or Mac - you've ever written a program or script with a computer language - you've heard of REBOL - you meet certain demographic patterns (i.e., live outside the US, are over the age of 25, are male, etc.) Then you're probably outside of that 90% demographic. Not only that, but the first degree of people that you work with, network among or who share your interests also stand a high chance of not falling within that 90%. Likewise one could also predict that if your record collection contains a recording by Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, George Clinton or Sun Ra, then you've probably never purchased a Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Kelly Clarkson or Kenny G record -- nor can you likely name the artists at the top of the pop charts! Cheers, Ed

 [8/15] from: carl:cybercraft at: 20-Mar-2004 6:58


>Statistically, it is quite credible that over 90% of the desktop >public uses Windows and IE (based on random sampling).
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
>are over the age of 25, are male, etc.) >Then you're probably outside of that 90% demographic.
So, 90% of desktop users are US females under the age of 25? ;-) I've no doubt you're right that I'm more likely to know non-IE users than most, but how's REBOL to succeed if it cuts back on supporting the platforms where the types who'll try something different reside? I'm not a Mac user, but I would've rather seen an OSX version of View before a browser plugin. Of course, maybe the OSX version will appear at the same time as View 1.3, in which case I'll chear. But as to the plugin - if you have to tell users to switch their OS or browser before they can use your site, then from their POV REBOL's a step backwards.

 [9/15] from: ed:brittlestar at: 20-Mar-2004 10:06


> Carl wrote: > So, 90% of desktop users are US females under the age of 25? ;-)
Those were examples of demographic criteria, 'tis all.
> I've no doubt you're right that I'm more likely to know non-IE users than
most, but how's REBOL to succeed if it cuts back on supporting the platforms where the types who'll try something different reside? I don't disagree. However, assuming all platforms can't be supported on day one, IE is the logical place to start. Also, I'm not sure it's clear to me that Windows users don't try different things. Close-mindedness, of course, is not platform specific; non Win/Mac users can be equally stubborn (although often in different ways).
> I'm not a Mac user, but I would've rather seen an OSX version of View
before a browser plugin. I agree completely. The lack of OSX is a gap so large you could drive an SUV through it!
> Of course, maybe the OSX version will appear at the same time as View 1.3,
in which case I'll chear. Please let it be so! Lack of REBOL/View on OSX has held me up from switching over to the Mac as my primary platform.
> But as to the plugin - if you have to tell users to switch their OS or
browser before they can use your site, then from their POV REBOL's a step backwards. Agreed. Although many would argue that requiring a browser plug-in at all is a step backwards... Regards, Ed

 [10/15] from: moliad:aei:ca at: 20-Mar-2004 22:16


> Please let it be so! Lack of REBOL/View on OSX has held me up from switching > over to the Mac as my primary platform.
I'll only buy my laptop once its released.!
> > But as to the plugin - if you have to tell users to switch their OS or > browser before they can use your site, then from their POV REBOL's a step > backwards. > > Agreed. Although many would argue that requiring a browser plug-in at all is > a step backwards...
in what way... I can now promote my application without even needing a user to know about rebol .... I find that really cool... blood stone is the fist app which will benefit from the plugin and I am sure many D&D players will be happy to use it... later this summer ! -MAx

 [11/15] from: ed:brittlestar at: 21-Mar-2004 9:03


Max wrote:
> > Agreed. Although many would argue that requiring a browser plug-in at
all is
> > a step backwards... > > in what way... > > I can now promote my application without even needing a user to know about
rebol
> ...
As a developer, I like that there is now a new option for deploying REBOL apps. Despite the obvious benefits of the plug-in approach, however, there are some potential problems: - Users cannot view your browser-based Reblet until they download the plug-in and lower their browser security. Many simply won't do this just for a website/app. - Browser-based applets/flash interfaces (esp. those that require installation of a plug-in) are widely opposed by the Internet users. Java and Flash first made their first forays in the browser, and the backlash adversely impacted their adoption on the desktop. - Plug-in versioning. This was one of the main headaches of using plug-ins in the past. I don't want to sound negative about the plug-in, because I really am happy to have it available as an option. However, I expect announcements to the various communities as well as the industry/press to be mostly indifferent. Hopefully REBOLers will create some jaw-dropping apps that bring about a broad-scale re-evaluation of REBOL's great capabilities. Ed

 [12/15] from: moliad:aei:ca at: 21-Mar-2004 10:21


Hi Ed, I agree with all you say, I'm just continuing the discussion... :-)
> As a developer, I like that there is now a new option for deploying REBOL > apps. Despite the obvious benefits of the plug-in approach, however, there > are some potential problems:
for me, It just allows me to install my app once and then use wherever I go.. (well, there has to be IE), but I have to admit that there always is where I work.
> - Users cannot view your browser-based Reblet until they download the > plug-in and lower their browser security. Many simply won't do this just for > a website/app.
But if I have to say on the site, that they have to INSTALL an exe... I don't think it will be much better... at least, now I can package a file-less version which can demo the application... If they are still interested, then they can install the full application. who nows, I might even use an http/cgi-based file access within the code, to let the application save and load data on a central server...
> - Browser-based applets/flash interfaces (esp. those that require > installation of a plug-in) are widely opposed by the Internet users. Java > and Flash first made their first forays in the browser, and the backlash > adversely impacted their adoption on the desktop.
yep. but we are moving the other way... we never depended on it... so the user's conception is slightly different, especially if a tool is deployed as I described above.
> - Plug-in versioning. This was one of the main headaches of using plug-ins > in the past.
well, so far, every new release of a rebol tool replaces itself. I guess, if they change the magic number of the plugin, then apps, will simply use the version of the plugin for which it was created. By what I hear of josh, they want concurent versions of the rebol plugin to exist on any computer. to make older scripts usable even in 10 years... as long as the platform still executes the plugin, I guess.
> I don't want to sound negative about the plug-in, because I really am happy > to have it available as an option. However, I expect announcements to the > various communities as well as the industry/press to be mostly indifferent.
just as they are about rebol itself. ;-)
> Hopefully REBOLers will create some jaw-dropping apps that bring about a > broad-scale re-evaluation of REBOL's great capabilities.
This is what I hope/expect. This is what I aim bloodstone to be. since many rpg players ARE programmers, then it might convert some of them, when they see just how powerfull rebol really CAN be. cheers! -MAx

 [13/15] from: bry:itnisk at: 21-Mar-2004 16:32


> > Hopefully REBOLers will create some jaw-
dropping apps that bring about a
> > broad-scale re-evaluation of REBOL's
great capabilities.
> This is what I hope/expect. This is what
I aim bloodstone to be. since many
> rpg players ARE programmers, then it might
convert some of them, when they see
> just how powerfull rebol really CAN be. >
Well the way I use Rebol is pretty much for simple scripts, for various reasons - some licensing based, some capabilities based - I don't find it interesting to build big solutions in. I want Rebol to be useful for basically hacking whatever system I'm on. Because of this I naturally expect that the way to get other people interested in Rebol is to show them ways they can rather quickly hack the system they're on. As such the plugin doesn't interest me so much as something running on a website, it interests me as something running locally interacting with the browser or other parts of windows that uses the browser's rendering engine. examples: The IE search bar Outlook's html rendering engine Custom built toolbars and toolbutton integration (of which I have a small example running on my system, hoping to make public in the next week) IE context menu calling rebol functions htt webfolder views integrated with rebol Active Desktop (of which I have an example running)

 [14/15] from: atruter:labyrinth:au at: 22-Mar-2004 8:43


> This is what I hope/expect. This is what I aim bloodstone to be. since > many > rpg players ARE programmers, then it might convert some of them, when > they see > just how powerfull rebol really CAN be.
But fragmentation and lack of critical mass are even bigger problems in the RPG industry, especially since TCG's provide higher revenue streams. Regards, Ashley (LoTR CODA)

 [15/15] from: ed:brittlestar at: 21-Mar-2004 17:46


Max wrote:
> But if I have to say on the site, that they have to INSTALL an exe... I
don't
> think it will be much better... at least, now I can package a file-less
version
> which can demo the application... If they are still interested, then they
can
> install the full application.
I agre that users are not keen to install .exe's from websites they don't trust. The only comment I'd add here is that people have very different expectations from the web versus a desktop application: - The web experience is mainly centered around browsing/scanning web content. It's a general mandate that they will not need to download or install anything. If as a developer you break that taboo, the value should be obvious to users and the reasons stated clearly on the site. If you don't make your intentions very clear, users will feel that you're imposing some kind of spyware/malware. - Gratuitous use of reblets on websites will probably create more backlash against REBOL than useful promotion. In general, if a website feature can be provided in HTML/DHTML, you should implement it that way. If you're tempted to implement something like a site menu via the plug-in, you should provide an alternative in HTML for those who reject the plug-in. Otherwise you're forcing users to submit to your wishes rather than the reverse. When your package an .exe for users to download and run on their desktop (not via the plug-in), users are generally prepared for that shift. They understand that running the local application will be different-- more interactive, less familiar. The downside is that with desktop apps, users expect a greater level of support from the author-- usually a help file, documentation, a mailing list/online forum, etc. This has been my experience on Win/Mac platforms.
> yep. but we are moving the other way... we never depended on > [browser deployment]...
I think the lessons of Flash & Java should still be considered. Users will probably know little about the background of REBOL, so the plug-in may be their first encounter. I'd follow the same warnings/considerations that are generally accepted for applets/Flash. Gotta run. Thanks, Ed

Notes
  • Quoted lines have been omitted from some messages.
    View the message alone to see the lines that have been omitted