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Rebol on Amithlon?

 [1/10] from: doncox::enterprise::net at: 24-Nov-2001 11:28


Has anyone tested Rebol View on Amithlon yet? (This is an emulator for running Amiga OS on standard PC hardware, without Windows.) Although View works on a 68k Amiga, it is very slow, especially the scrolling. Amithlon may be the answer, as it can run Amiga software at around 10x the speed of a 68060. MiamiDx is said to work, so Internet access should be OK. (It isn't clear why scrolling in View is so slow compared to other Amiga software, which generally scrolls as fast as PC software.) Regards -- Don Cox [doncox--enterprise--net]

 [2/10] from: holger:rebol at: 24-Nov-2001 6:42


On Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 11:28:00AM +0000, Don Cox wrote:
> (It isn't clear why scrolling in View is so slow compared to other Amiga > software, which generally scrolls as fast as PC software.)
Yes, but only for a few bit planes, typically 2 or 3. REBOL uses a full 24-bit compositing engine, which requires quantization and C2P-conversion in real-time. Other Amiga programs with similar functionality (24-bit paint programs etc.) are similarly slow. View does support hardware scrolling, but most programs do not make use of it. -- Holger Kruse [holger--rebol--com]

 [3/10] from: doncox:enterprise at: 24-Nov-2001 18:53


On 24-Nov-01, [holger--rebol--com] wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 11:28:00AM +0000, Don Cox wrote: >> (It isn't clear why scrolling in View is so slow compared to other
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> C2P-conversion in real-time. Other Amiga programs with similar > functionality (24-bit paint programs etc.) are similarly slow.
I generally run on 8-bit 1024x768 screens, and that would be what I used for View. The scrolling was much slower than on other programs, such as the Voyager web browser, running on the same screen mode. As Voyager is loading and assembling 24-bit JPEGs, it must have similar tasks to perform. Surely you don't have to do C2P conversion for a CGFX display?
> View does support hardware scrolling, but most programs do not make > use of it.
Well, no doubt it will be usable with faster processors, but I feel there is something wrong somewhere. A program ought to run at a good speed on a 68060 with a graphics card. PS tried it again, but this time I couldn't get it to open on its own screen. No tooltypes, no ASL screen requester, no preferences menu. Just a very ugly window on the workbench in what looked like 8 colours, with no dithering or anti-aliasing. There was a big bright green square at the bottom left, for some reason. It looked like it was just using RGBYMC white and black. Next to the GlowIcons in the WB windows, this looks bad. I really want Rebol to succeed, but it will have to present better than this. Regards -- Don Cox [doncox--enterprise--net]

 [4/10] from: holger:rebol at: 24-Nov-2001 12:12


On Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 06:53:04PM +0000, Don Cox wrote:
> I generally run on 8-bit 1024x768 screens, and that would be what I used > for View. The scrolling was much slower than on other programs, such as > the Voyager web browser, running on the same screen mode.
Probably because the scripts you used did not use hardware scrolling, but rather rerendered all data during every refresh. You can scroll by only changing the offset of a face, then setting face/changes to 'offset and calling 'show. This procedure significantly improves performance, by an order of magnitude. There are other tricks that can improve performance, such as using transparency only where necessary, and using non-transparent background colors everywhere else. You won't notice the difference on PCs, but you will on slow machines like the Amiga. Unfortunately most scripts out there are written and tested on PCs and therefore not optimized because the developers would never notice the effect of such optimizations on their machines.
> As Voyager is loading and assembling 24-bit JPEGs, it must have similar > tasks to perform. > > Surely you don't have to do C2P conversion for a CGFX display?
No, but you still have to quantize 24-bit to 8-bit in real-time. Plus, for scripts that do not use hardware scrolling the whole screen has to be refreshed every time. For large screens such as 1024x768 that obviously takes some time.
> Well, no doubt it will be usable with faster processors, but I feel > there is something wrong somewhere. A program ought to run at a good > speed on a 68060 with a graphics card.
View is quite usable on an 060 with graphics board if you use properly written scripts that make use of hardware scrolling and do not refresh faces more than necessary. The Conference applet of Express e.g. performs quite well on an Amiga, including scrolling.
> PS tried it again, but this time I couldn't get it to open on its own > screen. No tooltypes, no ASL screen requester, no preferences menu. Just
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> RGBYMC white and black. Next to the GlowIcons in the WB windows, this > looks bad.
Sounds like you either have bad screen options in user.r or you are using a patch that redirects REBOL to a different screen mode than requested. The View docs have some information on how to set your user.r to use custom screens.
> I really want Rebol to succeed, but it will have to present better than > this.
Unfortunately, given the complete lack of a commercial Amiga market these days, there is not much of a chance that we will be able to concentrate a lot on platform-specific improvements for the Amiga any time soon, so REBOL's success is unlikely to be determined by the performance of the Amiga port. Similarly for the BeOS port, given the situation BeOS is in. -- Holger Kruse [holger--rebol--com]

 [5/10] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 25-Nov-2001 11:28


> Unfortunately, given the complete lack of a commercial > Amiga > market these days, there is not much of a chance that we
Who knows. Perhaps QNX/AmigaOS XL might be a viable platform on it's own. -- Graham Chiu

 [6/10] from: doncox:enterprise at: 25-Nov-2001 11:28


On 24-Nov-01, [holger--rebol--com] wrote:
> Unfortunately, given the complete lack of a commercial Amiga > market these days, there is not much of a chance that we will
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> port. Similarly for the BeOS port, given the situation BeOS > is in.
Actually, Amithlon seems to be selling rather well, in spite of its high price, and I gather there is a queue of people wanting to register Miami. (but I mustn't mention that here) Of course, we are grateful that Carl has included AmigaOS in the list of supported platforms. This is more than Sun managed with Java. Regards -- Don Cox [doncox--enterprise--net]

 [7/10] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 25-Nov-2001 13:01


Hello [holger--rebol--com]! On 24-Nov-01, you wrote: h> Probably because the scripts you used did not use hardware h> scrolling, but rather rerendered all data during every h> refresh. You can scroll by only changing the offset of a face, h> then setting face/changes to 'offset and calling 'show. This h> procedure significantly improves performance, by an order of h> magnitude. BTW Holger, is there any reason why /View can't use QUERY on faces to see if only the offset was changed, so that the acceleration will be automatical without the need for the developer to remember to set the CHANGES facet? If there's no other choice, I'd suggest a mezzanine like: move-face: func [ "Move a face to a new offset" face [object!] new-offset [pair!] /relative "Move relative to current position" ] [ face/offset: either relative [face/offset + new-offset] [new-offset] face/changes: 'offset show face ] so that developers are encouraged to use hw scolling. Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[giesse--writeme--com]> - Amigan - REBOL programmer Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila -- http://www.amyresource.it/AGI/

 [8/10] from: holger:rebol at: 25-Nov-2001 9:11


On Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 01:01:27PM +0200, Gabriele Santilli wrote:
> Hello [holger--rebol--com]! > On 24-Nov-01, you wrote:
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> will be automatical without the need for the developer to remember > to set the CHANGES facet?
The problem is that there can be other, global changes. For instance the face may have been added to a different pane.
> If there's no other choice, I'd suggest a mezzanine like:
Sounds like a good idea. -- Holger Kruse [holger--rebol--com]

 [9/10] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 2-Dec-2001 13:02


> -----Original Message----- > From: [rebol-bounce--rebol--com] [mailto:[rebol-bounce--rebol--com]]On Behalf Of
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> price, and I gather there is a queue of people wanting to register > Miami.
Hi guys, as an old Amigian who alsways remembers the good old times, I had a look at this Amithlon stuff and ordered it right away. I must say, that I never heard anything about it, but well that's what a list like this is for :-)). Thanks for the tip! Yesterday I tried it and it's COOL! I will get some of my old Amiga (hard)disks and see what can be done with it. It's a very nice nerd toy, maybe I can use it for something in real-life. What's the best place to be/stays informed about Amithlon etc.? Robert

 [10/10] from: doncox:enterprise at: 2-Dec-2001 18:33


On 02-Dec-01, Robert M. Muench wrote:
> Hi guys, as an old Amigian who alsways remembers the good old times, I > had a look at this Amithlon stuff and ordered it right away. I must
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> toy, maybe I can use it for something in real-life. > What's the best place to be/stays informed about Amithlon etc.? Robert
Amithlon and AmigaXL lists on Yahoo Groups. Try both as lots of posts are to the "wrong" one. Also, www.amithlon.net for latest readmes etc. I think you could use it for plenty of things in Real life, including running Rebol. DTP with Pagestream is particularly good. Regards -- Don Cox [doncox--enterprise--net]

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