[REBOL.org] [ANN] Packages: the next generation

[1/5] from: SunandaDH:aol at: 29-Apr-2004 9:40

Back in February, we unveiled some basic support for *packages* in the Script Library (i.e. multi-file applications).... http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/ml-display-message.r?m=rmlMTXQ .....And we ran a competition, and got lots of useful feedback. Thanks again, everyone. Another positive result was that Maxim joined the Library team, and that has resulted in some serious upgrading of our ability to support packages..... No competition, this time: just a note about what is new, and the usual open door for feedback, requests and comments. NEW DOWNLOADER AND INSTALLER Maxim's repack.r replaces the original get-you-started-installer. It's a neat piece of software you'll want to see running even if you don't want to install any packages: do http://www.rebol.org/library/public/repack.r Right now it's View only (that will change), so use the original downloader if you are running under Core: do http://www.rebol.org/library/public/lds-package-downloader.r BETTER PACKAGE STRUCTURE The original release supported only packages that were a bundle of files, and had to be downloaded and installed into a single folder. That was pretty restricted. Packages now can consist of: -- a collection of files, as before -- existing scripts from the Library (no need to upload them as part of your package. Just flag them as part of it) -- other packages And any file or script in a package can be installed into any sub-folder of the installation folder. We think that pretty much caters for any complex multi-file application you'd like to publish at REBOL.org. Give it a go if you have such a thing, and if you hit a limitation, please let us know. For more details on creating and uploading packages: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/boiler.r?display=cons-upload-packag e-files-help.html Sunanda.

[2/5] from: reblist:codeconscious at: 4-May-2004 12:48

> NEW DOWNLOADER AND INSTALLER > BETTER PACKAGE STRUCTURE

Great work guys! I think these are a good solid steps forward for a REBOL platform. I have a few minor comments on the repack interface: *I like the the display of file sizes. How about some totals eg total package size and amount to download (if it is different from the total size)? *The package header in the specification pane looks like a button but does not behave like a button, which is inconsistent with the rest of the very nice interface. *The descriptions, "package file", "linked script", "package script", script from Library look like they could be useful, but to me I'm not sure what they actually mean. Perhaps a link to a glossary of terms or help page would be good. *It was not obvious to me that clicking on an item in the package pane would invoke network activity. This could be important for someone on a slow link. The subtle psychological consequence is that a user could become worried that they don't know when and where to click to be most efficient. *Related to the last point, if I queue up some package selection clicks every one of them will be processed. Again, on a slow link (or if rebol.org is responding slowly) someone who just fumbled their package selection might be in for a punishing wait until they get to select their intended package. Can some events be eaten? Does a package need to be requeried if the last query in the current session is only a few minutes old? Anyways, thanks again for the great work! Brett.

[3/5] from: SunandaDH:aol at: 4-May-2004 5:04

Hi Brett,

> Great work guys! I think these are a good solid steps forward for a REBOL > platform.

Thanks, Brett. Let me reply to the bits I can affect, and leave others to respond to other points:

> *The descriptions, "package file", "linked script", "package script", > "script from Library" look like they could be useful, but to me I'm not

sure

> what they actually mean. Perhaps a link to a glossary of terms or help page > would be good.

I'll update the documentation, and try to make it a bit clearer. For now: package file -- is a file in the package that the package owner has uploaded. It may be a REBOL script, binary image or anything else all the other terms (I think!) refer to scripts from the Library -- Example: I may have uploaded a package that needs Andrew's values.r to work properly. I don't need to upload a copy of values.r to the package. All I do when defining the package is flag values.r as part of it. Repack.r will download the latest copy of values.r when you download the package. Means there is only ever one copy of values.r in the Library -- not dozens of copies in different packages. Comprehensive (though maybe not comprehensible) help about packages starts here: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/boiler.r?display=cons-contribute-pa ckage-help.html

> *It was not obvious to me that clicking on an item in the package pane

would

> invoke network activity. This could be important for someone on a slow

link.

> The subtle psychological consequence is that a user could become worried > that they don't know when and where to click to be most efficient.

More visual feedback on what is happening is on the list of things to do. I agree that on slow links no one wants a program to start unexpectedly to start long-running network operations (I got only a 56K modem link most of the time myself). But total data transfer is very small -- well under 2K in most cases, unless you actually click the download button. Thanks again, Sunanda.

[4/5] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 4-May-2004 11:52

> -----Original Message----- > From: [SunandaDH--aol--com] [mailto:[SunandaDH--aol--com]]

<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>

> "package file" -- is a file in the package that the package owner has > uploaded. It may be a REBOL script, binary image or anything else

linked script is as sunanda described, a script already on rebol.org package file is if the author included a package. as described in my quick start repack mail, recursive downloading, is not yet available, just download it by iteslf (in the proper directory). script from Library !?!? ahhhh yeah, I see, (after looking at steel-libs package)... those are the notes under the file info... yes, maybe the LDS server should get the notes or purpose details from the linked script itself... as it is now, that is a generic message for linked scripts... Sunanda what do yo think, is that complex to do?

Perhaps a link to a glossary of

> terms or help page would be good.

part of the eventual help mentioned below...

> there is only ever > one copy of values.r in the Library -- not dozens of copies > in different > packages.

this of course depends if you install packages in their own directories, in which linked scripts DO exist in every install. Slim (from the steel project) would allow only one copy of the file to exist for all apps, even if the apps where installed anywhere.

> > *It was not obvious to me that clicking on an item in the > > package pane would > > invoke network activity. This could be important for > > someone on a slow link.

I built the application solely on a 56k access... its not too bad, waiting 1 second for the feedback, but It could be made clearer or it could also be buffered, so that if you go back to an earlier package, it does not upload it again. I thought maybe making the network feedback a distinct color (like blue)... maybe a first time use pop-up could also be usefull... (with "do not ask again" check box)

> > The subtle psychological consequence is that a user could > become worried > > that they don't know when and where to click to be most efficient.

There are only three buttons which poke the network. 1- refresh in package pane 2- clicking on a package to get its specs 3- download button all the rest is memory and disk access.

> More visual feedback on what is happening is on the list of > things to do.

<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>

> link most of the > time myself).

but at least in (now released) v1.1.0 you do get much better message & logging and a real "stop!" button to cancel downloads. docs are definitely missing at this point... the next version (no estimated release) will have a help button with descriptive text AND images.

> But total data transfer is very small -- well under 2K in > most cases, unless > you actually click the download button.

yep! network demands are pretty compact. I'd say rebol.org (through repack.r) bogs down only about 1-2% of requests (i.e. a network operation would take 10-15 seconds to complete, due to server/internet load)... btw which version did you try? HTH! -MAx

[5/5] from: reblist:codeconscious at: 5-May-2004 17:34

Thanks for the responses Sunanda and Maxim.

> btw which version did you try?

Um, good question. Whatever was current on rebol.org when I posted my original message (: Regards, Brett.

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