OS-specific Look and Feel
[1/10] from: datafeed:gmx at: 2-Jan-2003 17:16
I just visited the REBOL web page http://www.rebol.com/pre-view.html and found one example of OS-specific look and feel. That is the Windows 32 look (entitled "Windows 95 Skin"). Are there other examples? I'm looking for web sites showing Mac OS X (Aqua) and Motif examples. Probably all such OS-specific examples should be gathered under one roof. It would be convenient to look at them all on the same web page. Finally, are there any white papers on the technical workings of the REBOL graphics engine? I'm not after source code, just operating principles and deign philosophy. Mark
[2/10] from: vado:fabrice:chello at: 3-Jan-2003 16:10
Hi Evans, M.> Are there other examples? I'm looking for web sites showing Mac OS X M.> (Aqua) and Motif examples. This Rebsite http://etienne.alaurent.free.fr/index.r (in the tolls folder) And this others http://www.mustard.co.nz/rebol/window-skins.zip http://www.mustard.co.nz/rebol/window.r -- Fabrice
[3/10] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 3-Jan-2003 10:31
Hi Mark, ME> Are there other examples? I'm looking for web sites showing Mac OS X ME> (Aqua) and Motif examples. Etienne's are the best and most extensive out there I think. I'm not sure about Motif thuogh. He has aqua and QNX Neutrino skins though. ME> Probably all such OS-specific examples should be gathered under one ME> roof. It would be convenient to look at them all on the same web page. I think most people avoid the OS specific look (there aren't that many examples out there) but that may change in the future. ME> Finally, are there any white papers on the technical workings of the ME> REBOL graphics engine? I'm not after source code, just operating ME> principles and deign philosophy. RT is working on some new docs right now. What you want is what a lot of us want and I think they know that. There are lots of little details we'd like to know to make things more efficient and push the envelope. They just added a not-too-deep-but-still-nice doc on the DRAW dialect with a link from their main page at rebol.com. -- Gregg
[4/10] from: datafeed:gmx at: 3-Jan-2003 11:24
Fabrice, Thanks. Could you or someone actually run these scripts and post some screenshots as PNG or JPG on the web? What I am after is a website where I can direct people to show off the capabilities of REBOL in this area (native OS look-and-feel imitation). Many people got "turned off" by Sun Java's promise of write once, run anywhere, because the Java look and feel was not native but "generic." I have a hard time convincing people to use REBOL unless I can just show them a website with appropriate screen shots. They want a 10-second "elevator pitch" and will not be willing to run scripts on their own. I don't have a website to use. Regards. Mark ------------------------------------------ On 1/3/2003 at 8:10 AM Fabrice wrote:
> Hi Evans,
M.>> Are there other examples? I'm looking for web sites showing Mac OS X M.>> (Aqua) and Motif examples.
[5/10] from: doncox:enterprise at: 4-Jan-2003 17:31
Hello M. On 03/01/03, M. Evans wrote:
> Fabrice, > Thanks. Could you or someone actually run these scripts and post some
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>> shots. They want a 10-second "elevator pitch" and will not be willing > to run scripts on their own. I don't have a website to use.
Making a program seem to be native is much more than just adding a set of bitmap images. The behaviour has to match too. IMO making the GUI look supeficially like that of Windows, Mac, etc would make things worse, because the user will then expect the behviour to match as well, and be annoyed when it doesn't. Whereas if the program looks weird, the user will not feel cheated if it acts weird too. People have adapted to the cross-platform web browser environment because it doesn't look like a normal program. Regards -- Don Cox [doncox--enterprise--net]
[6/10] from: rebologue:y:ahoo at: 4-Jan-2003 15:37
Hi Don-- --- On 03/01/03, M. Evans wrote:
> What I am after is a website where I can direct > people to show off the capabilities of REBOL in this > area (native OS look-and-feel imitation).
--- On 04/01/02 Don Cox replied:
> Hello M. <snip>
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>> Whereas if the program looks weird, the user will > not feel cheated if it acts weird too.
I don't follow this logic. It sounds to me like you're saying that because REBOL doesn't fully emulate the behavior of the native OS/platform, we're better off avoiding UI conformity with the underlying OS altogether. Unless you're developing programs/apps exclusively for yourself or your close friends, let me say: caveat emptor-- this is high-risk advice. For better or worse, a few important things happened in computing during the past decade: 1, the GUI displaced the command line for the vast majority of desktops, 2, normal, ordinary people displaced technicians, programmers and sys admins as the leading users of software, and 3, roughly 94% of users operate in a Win/Mac GUI environment. It boils down to who you're writing programs for. If it's just for you, or your group of coworkers/friends that have similar skills and background, then, by all means, get as jiggy as you wanna get with tha look and feel. However, if you want to write programs commercially, or for people you may have never met personally-- hey, maybe even release your program in the wild using the SDK-- you should think carefully about the intended audience and design around the expectations of this group. The better the job you do meeting these expectations (for the interface, program behavior, user goals, etc.), the fewer people-problems you'll likely encounter.
> People have adapted to the cross-platform web > browser environment because it doesn't look like a > normal program.
Well yes and no. But my take-away from this would be,"If your program behaves like the web, adopt the look-and-feel of a highly regarded web page or site that is similar to your app. But if your program behaves like an application, adopt a look-and-feel that closely models an app with which the user is already familiar and comfortable." The short reason why people have adapted to the web is because the benefits and payoffs far outweighed the cost/learning curve. Some of the reasons are: * it uses a document metaphor, which users prefer to an application metaphor; IOW, it's a supermarket with prepackaged goods, not a combine harvestor * browser navigation and menu links are typically out in the open and not hidden behind layers of pull-down menus * there are often multiple forms of navigation to users (hierarchical site menus, linear/search and content hyperlinks) * it's relatively easy to author pages * almost every desktop has a browser Due to its strengths, the Web has become a loose standard (i.e., a content-driven experience with link navigation). But don't overlook that the web is a huge catalog of usability problems. The last 5 years have been described by some as the worlds largest amateur software development project. Generally speaking, if you're programming for others, it's not a good idea to create new and distinct interface innovations unless you've got strong evidence that you've leapfrogged the standard of the user's primary platform. What's best for REBOL is what's best for users, and vice-versa. I don't mean get in a snit with anyone over this. Best, Ed
[7/10] from: datafeed:gmx at: 4-Jan-2003 14:59
Don, I'm not really after opinions or debate. Some people have their minds made up about this. What I'm after are screenshots to demonstrate that REBOL can satisfy their requirements. So I'm not interested in whether it's right or wrong, just how far REBOL can go in this area. Regards. Mark
[8/10] from: carl::cybercraft::co::nz at: 5-Jan-2003 17:52
On 05-Jan-03, M. Evans wrote:
> Don, > I'm not really after opinions or debate. Some people have their
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>> Regards. > Mark
Hi Mark, I grabbed a few screenshots of the etienne skins and put them here... http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/left/rebol/skin-grabs/etienne-skin-grabs.html Criticisms I've personally had regarding the Win98 skin, (the one that appeared quite early - there's a WinXP skin in these grabs, but not Win98, and I'm not sure who did the Win98 one), was that it didn't grab the user's personal Windows' colors, and didn't have a standard Win98 file-requester, but otherwise felt quite good. I'd say REBOL could get very close to most GUIs, but that it'd be a lot of work. Skins in my opinion should be totally seperate from the program, so we as programmers can write our programs using the default REBOL skin and the user chooses the skins of their choice One day I guess that skins directory that comes with View will be put to use. How long away that day is though remains to be seen. -- Carl Read
[9/10] from: datafeed:gmx at: 5-Jan-2003 18:37
Carl, thank you very much. Just what I needed. I'd like to see added the "Windows 95 Skin" from http://www.rebol.com/pre-view.html The main issue is not exotic colors and user skinning, just plain old Windows / Mac / Unix looks. The Mac Aqua style you show is good. The only thing seemingly missing is OS-specific resizing of the buttons, window title bars and such, but that is trivia. Thank you Carl! I hope REBOL incorporated sees fit to revisit this topic and post some "official" screen shots in the same vein. It would be a good way to help sell REBOL. Some people care about this stuff. Regards. Mark
[10/10] from: carl:cybercraft at: 6-Jan-2003 15:45
On 06-Jan-03, M. Evans wrote:
> Carl, thank you very much. Just what I needed. > I'd like to see added the "Windows 95 Skin" from > http://www.rebol.com/pre-view.html
Will see what I can do.
> The only thing seemingly missing is OS-specific resizing of the > buttons, window title bars and such, but that is trivia.
The title-bars would match the OS the program's running on, so in most cases would be normal looking. That was KDE on Mandrake Linux, but on Windows they'd be the Windows' style, the Mac style on the Mac and so on.
> Thank you Carl! I hope REBOL incorporated sees fit to revisit this > topic and post some "official" screen shots in the same vein. It > would be a good way to help sell REBOL. Some people care about this > stuff.
I know. A GUI that behaves differently to what you're used to can be annoying, and probably doubly so to those who've only ever used one GUI.
> Regards. > Mark >> Hi Mark, >> I grabbed a few screenshots of the etienne skins and put them >> here... >>
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/left/rebol/skin-grabs/etienne-skin-grabs.html -- Carl Read
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