Function "LAUNCH" - Usage questions

[1/27] from: riusa::email::it at: 7-Jun-2002 8:53

Hi all, I was very interested to the function "launch" (I didn't know it). But I didn't find enought documentation about it. Can someone tell me more about launch refiniments? (this function could be used to simulate a multiprocessing system!). thank you! --Alessandro-- -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Paura delle Eurobanconote false? Clicca qui Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=374&d=7-6

[2/27] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 7-Jun-2002 11:32

Hi Allesandro, << I was very interested to the function "launch" (I didn't know it). But I didn't find enought documentation about it. Can someone tell me more about launch refiniments? (this function could be used to simulate a multiprocessing system!).

Launch is fairly limited in practice because you can't use it from within your scripts, only at the console. It's handy, yes, but not for deployment purposes. For that you need to have View/Pro or /Command and use CALL or a native OS function. --Gregg

[3/27] from: rpgwriter::yahoo at: 7-Jun-2002 11:43

--- Gregg Irwin <[greggirwin--mindspring--com]> wrote:

> Hi Allesandro, > <<

<<quoted lines omitted: 10>>

> purposes. For that you need to have View/Pro or > /Command and use CALL or a native OS function.

I thought 'launch could be used by a script if it was called directly from the REBOL command line, but was not usable (or predictable, maybe) in scripts themselves launched by other scripts, from the console prompt, or from view icons.

[4/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 10-Jun-2002 9:11

Thank you (sigh!). When a Rebol version will include a multiprocessing/multithreading feature?! It is a very important feature in a programming language! True multitasking! Python already does! Java already does! And... how about low level socket programming? Is Rebol an Internet programming language or not?! Bye! Thank you for your answers! -Alessandro- ===================================================================

> --- Gregg Irwin <[greggirwin--mindspring--com]> wrote: > > Hi Allesandro,

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[5/27] from: maarten:koopmans:surfnet:nl at: 10-Jun-2002 10:04

REBOL has low-level socket programming via ports and set-modes --Maarten [riusa--email--it] wrote:

> Thank you (sigh!). > When a Rebol version will include a multiprocessing/multithreading

<<quoted lines omitted: 59>>

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[6/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 10-Jun-2002 12:52

Where can I find documentation or infos about it?

> REBOL has low-level socket programming via ports and set-modes > --Maarten

<<quoted lines omitted: 88>>

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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Alessandro Manotti Presidente dell'Associazione di volontariato O.N.L.U.S. "RIUSA" Sito web: http://riusa.apritisesamo.net http://riusa.150m.com email: [riusa--email--it] mailing-list: [riusa-ml--yahoogroups--com] Telefono: 347.63.43.231 -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Quest=92anno, prima di partire per il mare collegati ad Oliviero.it, troverai sicuramente tutto quello che ti occorre per trascorrere le Tue vacanze. Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=493&d=10-6

[7/27] from: maarten:koopmans:surfnet:nl at: 10-Jun-2002 14:00

Network programming: core 2.3 user guide set-modes: Core 2.5 release notes --Maarten [riusa--email--it] wrote:

> Where can I find documentation or infos about it? >>REBOL has low-level socket programming via ports and set-modes

<<quoted lines omitted: 115>>

> Quest'anno, prima di partire per il mare collegati ad Oliviero.it, troverai sicuramente tutto quello che ti occorre per trascorrere le Tue vacanze. > Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=493&d=10-6

[8/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 10-Jun-2002 16:02

Thank you! --Alessandro-- =================================================

> Network programming: core 2.3 user guide > set-modes: Core 2.5 release notes

<<quoted lines omitted: 14>>

> >>>When a Rebol version will include a multiprocessing/multithreading > >>>feature?! It is a very important feature in a programming language!

True

> >>>multitasking! Python already does! Java already does! And... how about > >>>low level socket programming? Is Rebol an Internet programming language

<<quoted lines omitted: 66>>

> >>>-- > >>>Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia:

http://www.email.it/f

> >>> > >>>Sponsor:

<<quoted lines omitted: 39>>

> > Sponsor: > > Quest'anno, prima di partire per il mare collegati ad Oliviero.it,

troverai sicuramente tutto quello che ti occorre per trascorrere le Tue vacanze.

> > Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=493&d=10-6 > >

<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>

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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Alessandro Manotti Presidente dell'Associazione di volontariato O.N.L.U.S. "RIUSA" Sito web: http://riusa.apritisesamo.net http://riusa.150m.com email: [riusa--email--it] mailing-list: [riusa-ml--yahoogroups--com] Telefono: 347.63.43.231 -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Gratis per te il software per inviare e ricevere SMS direttamente dal tuo PC Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=278&d=10-6

[9/27] from: rpgwriter:ya:hoo at: 10-Jun-2002 8:13

FWIW, my earlier message on this thread represented an incorrect understanding; launch can be used in the console and scripts launched through the console, but not in scripts invoked via the REBOL command line; not sure about using the /View interface. This makes it, as others have noted, less than desirable for deployment in most cases.

[10/27] from: mark:jobstreet at: 11-Jun-2002 12:30

1) Agree.... a lot of the function needed can not be implemented well without true multitasking especially a lot of Network programming that need multithreads. 2) Low level socket programming is available in Rebol. However, good proper documentation is not available (or I don't know), making low level socket programming a difficult task. -Mark

> Thank you (sigh!). > When a Rebol version will include a multiprocessing/multithreading

<<quoted lines omitted: 63>>

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[11/27] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 11-Jun-2002 12:27

Hi Mark, On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, 6:30:46 AM, you wrote: MC> 1) Agree.... a lot of the function needed can not be implemented well without MC> true multitasking especially a lot of Network programming that need MC> multithreads. I'd like to point out, that multithreading would only be needed for servers that occasionally do a lot of processing. In most situations, asynchronous I/O is sufficient and simpler to handle. Anyway, I'd really like to have real preemptive multitasking in REBOL, maybe just the ability to spawn N REBOL processes and have them interconnected by a sort of rebol:// scheme more efficient than TCP/IP (for things that need to transfer a lot of data, where using shared memory should be preferred to copying around...). Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer Amigan -- AGI L'Aquila -- REB: http://web.tiscali.it/rebol/index.r

[12/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 11-Jun-2002 16:51

Hi Gabriele, I partially agree with you. Multitasking is not needed only to develop server processes, since there could be many occasions where I should need more than one process in "parallel" at-a-time, even in client applications. I wish to simplify the life of Rebol developers, so I can say I can use every instrument to create multiprocesses: multiprocess (like a FORK), multithread (Ms Windows-style) either preemptive or cooperative (even if the last one is not the best system... however is a good beginning!). Bye! --Alessandro--

> Hi Mark, > > On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, 6:30:46 AM, you wrote: > > MC> 1) Agree.... a lot of the function needed can not be implemented

well without

> MC> true multitasking especially a lot of Network programming that need > MC> multithreads.

<<quoted lines omitted: 15>>

> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Alessandro Manotti Presidente dell'Associazione di volontariato O.N.L.U.S. "RIUSA" Sito web: http://riusa.apritisesamo.net http://riusa.150m.com email: [riusa--email--it] mailing-list: [riusa-ml--yahoogroups--com] Telefono: 347.63.43.231 -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Paura delle Eurobanconote false? Clicca qui Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=374&d=11-6

[13/27] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 11-Jun-2002 10:35

Hi Allesandro, << I wish to simplify the life of Rebol developers, so I can say I can use every instrument to create multiprocesses: multiprocess (like a FORK), multithread (Ms Windows-style) either preemptive or cooperative (even if the last one is not the best system... however is a good beginning!). >> There are many levels of utility in how multiasking can be used, IMO. Generally, being able to spawn a background printing or query process can be very useful. The problem I have is that multitasking is just plain hard to get right. Maarten has a lightweight threading model in Rugby and I've built a small state machine based co-process test myself, so cooperative multitasking is certainly doable. When you add the View event loop into the picture, things can get a little dicier. Anyway, as useful as multitasking might be, I classify it as a be-careful-what-you-wish-for feature. :) --Gregg

[14/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 12-Jun-2002 9:13

Hi Gregg, how do you think you can implement multitasking (even cooperative, but enough efficient, with an enough fast task-switching) in Rebol Core? Using WAIT instruction? And in View that the documentation suggest NOT TO USE wait command? If the standard Rebol/Core (royalty free version, base version) should allow us to launch multiple programs (now I can do it in a script only using Rebol/Command, with CALL instruction) I could launch two or more Rebol programs and let them communicate (semaphore simulation, data-sharing simulation) to let them cooperate. Yes, I know, what I'm saying is weird, but it should be a good beginning to partially round the multitasking problem. Carl, what do you think about it? Will you implement the possibility to execute external programs (using "CALL"? Using "LAUNCH"?) even in Rebol/Core? bye! --Alessandro-- -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Professionisti per le emergenze quotidiane della casa e della famiglia? su QXservice trovi idraulici, imbianchini, baby sitter e tanti altri. Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=535&d=12-6

[15/27] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 12-Jun-2002 11:35

Hi Alessandro, On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, 9:13:22 AM, you wrote: rei> how do you think you can implement multitasking (even cooperative, but rei> enough efficient, with an enough fast task-switching) in Rebol Core? rei> Using WAIT instruction? And in View that the documentation suggest NOT rei> TO USE wait command? I think you got this wrong here. :) WAIT is the basis of /View's event system, since events are coming from the event:// port. What you cannot do, is call WAIT *inside* WAIT (i.e. inside an event handler, etc.). If you want an example of cooperative multitasking look at Rugby. Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer Amigan -- AGI L'Aquila -- REB: http://web.tiscali.it/rebol/index.r

[16/27] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 12-Jun-2002 11:42

[riusa--email--it] wrote:

>Hi Gregg, >how do you think you can implement multitasking (even cooperative, but

<<quoted lines omitted: 14>>

>bye! >--Alessandro--

Alessandro - you have to be new here, no? :-) Look, rebol base is just one - so - even your View contains sound, shell and library components. They are locked by license key. I am trying for at least two years to lobby for all of them being unlocked. No success yet, though. Hopefully at least sound will come in next release or so I hope, but I doubt RT will change their mind in regards to Shell and/or Library ones ... -pekr-

[17/27] from: maarten:koopmans:surfnet:nl at: 12-Jun-2002 12:57

And you can get rugby at www.rebolforces.com/~erebol --maarten Gabriele Santilli wrote:

> Hi Alessandro, > On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, 9:13:22 AM, you wrote:

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> Regards, > Gabriele.

[18/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 12-Jun-2002 14:29

-pekr- Wrote:

> Alessandro - you have to be new here, no? :-) Look, rebol base is just > one - so - even your View contains sound, shell and library components. > They are locked by license key.

Ok... and where is the difference for me?! I have two options... 1) View does not contain sound, shell, etc... 2) View contain sound, shell, etc... but they are locked. Result: I haven't those features! Regards. --Alessandro-- -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Le maglie con il numero e il nome dei tuoi campioni, sono sul Milanstore Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=313&d=12-6

[19/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 12-Jun-2002 14:23

Thank you! --Alessandro-- =========================================================

> Hi Alessandro, > > On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, 9:13:22 AM, you wrote: > > rei> how do you think you can implement multitasking (even

cooperative, but

> rei> enough efficient, with an enough fast task-switching) in Rebol Core? > rei> Using WAIT instruction? And in View that the documentation

suggest NOT

> rei> TO USE wait command? > I think you got this wrong here. :) WAIT is the basis of /View's

<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>

> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Alessandro Manotti Presidente dell'Associazione di volontariato O.N.L.U.S. "RIUSA" Sito web: http://riusa.apritisesamo.net http://riusa.150m.com email: [riusa--email--it] mailing-list: [riusa-ml--yahoogroups--com] Telefono: 347.63.43.231 -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Cerchi una vera occasione? Trovala su eBay,il mercato online del mondo. Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=528&d=12-6

[20/27] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 12-Jun-2002 10:57

Hi Alessandro, << 2) View contain sound, shell, etc... but they are locked. >> I think their special $49 pricing on View/Pro is gone, so it might be $99 now, but still not an outrageous fee if you need those features. --Gregg

[21/27] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 12-Jun-2002 11:08

Hi Alessandro, << how do you think you can implement multitasking (even cooperative, but enough efficient, with an enough fast task-switching) in Rebol Core? Using WAIT instruction? And in View that the documentation suggest NOT TO USE wait command? >> WAIT shouldn't be a problem except in VID, as Gabriele pointed out. My little test is very simple, and was based on an FSM engine I built. The engine itself does event dispatching and, on my P900, processes about 10,000 events/sec. There's no need to WAIT for anything. Just do things in small chunks to be a good co-op citizen. << If the standard Rebol/Core (royalty free version, base version) should allow us to launch multiple programs (now I can do it in a script only using Rebol/Command, with CALL instruction) I could launch two or more Rebol programs and let them communicate (semaphore simulation, data-sharing simulation) to let them cooperate. Yes, I know, what I'm saying is weird, but it should be a good beginning to partially round the multitasking problem. >> Absolutely. That's not weird at all. Rugby is a solid IPC mechanism whether local or remote. --Gregg

[22/27] from: izkata:aol at: 12-Jun-2002 14:21

If the two Rebol programs can't communicate directly, have them write to a .TXT file, and the other would look for keywords do do something, write something else to the file, etc,etc. I have tried and used Rebol for about 2 years now (at least, it seems like 2 years... I first started using it when /Core couldn't even do a Forever loop) and this seems like an OK idea, but I've never had a reason to try it. Daniel S, 14 yrs old

[23/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 13-Jun-2002 8:49

> WAIT shouldn't be a problem except in VID, as Gabriele pointed out. My > little test is very simple, and was based on an FSM engine I built. The > engine itself does event dispatching and, on my P900, processes about

10,000

> events/sec. There's no need to WAIT for anything. Just do things in small > chunks to be a good co-op citizen.

Ok. I will write a software dispacher to create a multitasking-cooperative system. Regards. --Alessandro-- -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: Nel Webstore Oliviero.it trovi gli integratori della rinomata azienda Ultimate, come Protein90: un concentrato di potenza per i tuoi muscoli. Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=497&d=13-6

[24/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 13-Jun-2002 8:45

> I think their special $49 pricing on View/Pro is gone, so it might be $99 > now, but still not an outrageous fee if you need those features. > > --Gregg >

However... in this mailing-list many people ask to Carl to make free-of-charge some Rebol resources and, as you told me, we obtain an increment of the price of View/Pro version! I don't think this is the right way. Regards. --Alessandro-- -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: I mondiali sono iniziati e da Oliviero.it trovi la maglie ufficiali della Nazionale Italiana. Cosa aspetti ad indossarla? Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=491&d=13-6

[25/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 13-Jun-2002 8:59

> If the two Rebol programs can't communicate directly, > have them write to a .TXT file, and the other would look

<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>

> idea, but I've never had a reason to try it. > Daniel S, 14 yrs old

Hi Daniel, what you say is enought good. But this system has some problems. Infact: 1) two programs risk to attempt to write the file at the same time. 2) communication is slow. 3) the file must be accessible to every program (directory sharing? sometimes is not possible!) However your system is good to let two programs communicate with a mechanism ONE QUESTION / ONE ANSWER. bye! --Alessandro-- -- Prendi GRATIS l'email universale che... risparmia: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: nuovissimo Sony Ericsson T68i marchiato TIM Clicca qui: http://adv2.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=552&d=13-6

[26/27] from: rpgwriter:ya:hoo at: 13-Jun-2002 11:40

--- "[riusa--email--it]" <[riusa--email--it]> wrote:

> > I think their special $49 pricing on View/Pro is > gone, so it might be $99

<<quoted lines omitted: 10>>

> think this is the > right way.

Technically, I don't think its an increase, just that the "cheap option" of a non-commercial $49 license was removed; the commercial license was $99 before, IIRC, and seems to be the only View/Pro available.

[27/27] from: rpgwriter:y:ahoo at: 13-Jun-2002 11:44

--- "[riusa--email--it]" <[riusa--email--it]> wrote:

> > > > If the two Rebol programs can't communicate

<<quoted lines omitted: 21>>

> 1) two programs risk to attempt to write the file at > the same time.

Use different files for each direction of communication; for any given file, one program is the reader, one the writer. Or use lock and signal files to indicate when the file is in use, when it has data wanting to be read, etc. Or do both.

> 2) communication is slow.

This is true. One reason why TCP/IP is probably better.

> 3) the file must be accessible to every program > (directory sharing? sometimes is not possible!)

Again, true, and advantage TCP/IP.

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