Function "LAUNCH" - Usage questions
[1/27] from: riusa::email::it at: 7-Jun-2002 8:53
Hi all,
I was very interested to the function "launch" (I didn't know it).
But I didn't find enought documentation about it.
Can someone tell me more about launch refiniments? (this function could
be used to simulate a multiprocessing system!).
thank you!
--Alessandro--
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[2/27] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 7-Jun-2002 11:32
Hi Allesandro,
<<
I was very interested to the function "launch" (I didn't know it).
But I didn't find enought documentation about it.
Can someone tell me more about launch refiniments? (this function could
be used to simulate a multiprocessing system!).
>>
Launch is fairly limited in practice because you can't use it from within
your scripts, only at the console. It's handy, yes, but not for deployment
purposes. For that you need to have View/Pro or /Command and use CALL or a
native OS function.
--Gregg
[3/27] from: rpgwriter::yahoo at: 7-Jun-2002 11:43
--- Gregg Irwin <[greggirwin--mindspring--com]> wrote:
> Hi Allesandro,
> <<
<<quoted lines omitted: 10>>
> purposes. For that you need to have View/Pro or
> /Command and use CALL or a native OS function.
I thought 'launch could be used by a script if it was
called directly from the REBOL command line, but was
not usable (or predictable, maybe) in scripts
themselves launched by other scripts, from the console
prompt, or from view icons.
[4/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 10-Jun-2002 9:11
Thank you (sigh!).
When a Rebol version will include a multiprocessing/multithreading
feature?! It is a very important feature in a programming language! True
multitasking! Python already does! Java already does! And... how about
low level socket programming? Is Rebol an Internet programming language
or not?!
Bye!
Thank you for your answers!
-Alessandro-
===================================================================
> --- Gregg Irwin <[greggirwin--mindspring--com]> wrote:
> > Hi Allesandro,
<<quoted lines omitted: 27>>
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[5/27] from: maarten:koopmans:surfnet:nl at: 10-Jun-2002 10:04
REBOL has low-level socket programming via ports and set-modes
--Maarten
[riusa--email--it] wrote:
> Thank you (sigh!).
> When a Rebol version will include a multiprocessing/multithreading
<<quoted lines omitted: 59>>
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[6/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 10-Jun-2002 12:52
Where can I find documentation or infos about it?
> REBOL has low-level socket programming via ports and set-modes
> --Maarten
<<quoted lines omitted: 88>>
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[7/27] from: maarten:koopmans:surfnet:nl at: 10-Jun-2002 14:00
Network programming: core 2.3 user guide
set-modes: Core 2.5 release notes
--Maarten
[riusa--email--it] wrote:
> Where can I find documentation or infos about it?
>>REBOL has low-level socket programming via ports and set-modes
<<quoted lines omitted: 115>>
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[8/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 10-Jun-2002 16:02
Thank you!
--Alessandro--
=================================================
> Network programming: core 2.3 user guide
> set-modes: Core 2.5 release notes
<<quoted lines omitted: 14>>
> >>>When a Rebol version will include a multiprocessing/multithreading
> >>>feature?! It is a very important feature in a programming language!
True
> >>>multitasking! Python already does! Java already does! And... how about
> >>>low level socket programming? Is Rebol an Internet programming language
<<quoted lines omitted: 66>>
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[9/27] from: rpgwriter:yaho:o at: 10-Jun-2002 8:13
FWIW, my earlier message on this thread represented an
incorrect understanding; launch can be used in the
console and scripts launched through the console, but
not in scripts invoked via the REBOL command line; not
sure about using the /View interface.
This makes it, as others have noted, less than
desirable for deployment in most cases.
[10/27] from: mark:jobstreet at: 11-Jun-2002 12:30
1) Agree.... a lot of the function needed can not be implemented well without
true multitasking especially a lot of Network programming that need
multithreads.
2) Low level socket programming is available in Rebol. However, good
proper documentation is not available (or I don't know), making low level
socket programming a difficult task.
-Mark
> Thank you (sigh!).
> When a Rebol version will include a multiprocessing/multithreading
<<quoted lines omitted: 63>>
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[11/27] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 11-Jun-2002 12:27
Hi Mark,
On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, 6:30:46 AM, you wrote:
MC> 1) Agree.... a lot of the function needed can not be implemented well without
MC> true multitasking especially a lot of Network programming that need
MC> multithreads.
I'd like to point out, that multithreading would only be needed
for servers that occasionally do a lot of processing. In most
situations, asynchronous I/O is sufficient and simpler to handle.
Anyway, I'd really like to have real preemptive multitasking in
REBOL, maybe just the ability to spawn N REBOL processes and have
them interconnected by a sort of rebol:// scheme more efficient
than TCP/IP (for things that need to transfer a lot of data, where
using shared memory should be preferred to copying around...).
Regards,
Gabriele.
--
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Amigan -- AGI L'Aquila -- REB: http://web.tiscali.it/rebol/index.r
[12/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 11-Jun-2002 16:51
Hi Gabriele,
I partially agree with you. Multitasking is not needed only to develop
server processes, since there could be many occasions where I should
need more than one process in "parallel" at-a-time, even in client
applications.
I wish to simplify the life of Rebol developers, so I can say I can use
every instrument to create multiprocesses: multiprocess (like a FORK),
multithread (Ms Windows-style) either preemptive or cooperative (even if
the last one is not the best system... however is a good beginning!).
Bye!
--Alessandro--
> Hi Mark,
>
> On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, 6:30:46 AM, you wrote:
>
> MC> 1) Agree.... a lot of the function needed can not be implemented
well without
> MC> true multitasking especially a lot of Network programming that need
> MC> multithreads.
<<quoted lines omitted: 15>>
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> subject, without the quotes.
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[13/27] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 11-Jun-2002 10:35
Hi Allesandro,
<< I wish to simplify the life of Rebol developers, so I can say I can use
every instrument to create multiprocesses: multiprocess (like a FORK),
multithread (Ms Windows-style) either preemptive or cooperative (even if
the last one is not the best system... however is a good beginning!). >>
There are many levels of utility in how multiasking can be used, IMO.
Generally, being able to spawn a background printing or query process can be
very useful. The problem I have is that multitasking is just plain hard to
get right. Maarten has a lightweight threading model in Rugby and I've built
a small state machine based co-process test myself, so cooperative
multitasking is certainly doable. When you add the View event loop into the
picture, things can get a little dicier.
Anyway, as useful as multitasking might be, I classify it as a
be-careful-what-you-wish-for feature. :)
--Gregg
[14/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 12-Jun-2002 9:13
Hi Gregg,
how do you think you can implement multitasking (even cooperative, but
enough efficient, with an enough fast task-switching) in Rebol Core?
Using WAIT instruction? And in View that the documentation suggest NOT
TO USE wait command?
If the standard Rebol/Core (royalty free version, base version) should
allow us to launch multiple programs (now I can do it in a script only
using Rebol/Command, with CALL instruction) I could launch two or more
Rebol programs and let them communicate (semaphore simulation,
data-sharing simulation) to let them cooperate. Yes, I know, what I'm
saying is weird, but it should be a good beginning to partially round
the multitasking problem.
Carl,
what do you think about it? Will you implement the possibility to
execute external programs (using "CALL"? Using "LAUNCH"?) even in
Rebol/Core?
bye!
--Alessandro--
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[15/27] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 12-Jun-2002 11:35
Hi Alessandro,
On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, 9:13:22 AM, you wrote:
rei> how do you think you can implement multitasking (even cooperative, but
rei> enough efficient, with an enough fast task-switching) in Rebol Core?
rei> Using WAIT instruction? And in View that the documentation suggest NOT
rei> TO USE wait command?
I think you got this wrong here. :) WAIT is the basis of /View's
event system, since events are coming from the event:// port. What
you cannot do, is call WAIT *inside* WAIT (i.e. inside an event
handler, etc.).
If you want an example of cooperative multitasking look at Rugby.
Regards,
Gabriele.
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[16/27] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 12-Jun-2002 11:42
[riusa--email--it] wrote:
>Hi Gregg,
>how do you think you can implement multitasking (even cooperative, but
<<quoted lines omitted: 14>>
>bye!
>--Alessandro--
Alessandro - you have to be new here, no? :-) Look, rebol base is just
one - so - even your View contains sound, shell and library components.
They are locked by license key.
I am trying for at least two years to lobby for all of them being
unlocked. No success yet, though. Hopefully at least sound will come in
next release or so I hope, but I doubt RT will change their mind in
regards to Shell and/or Library ones ...
-pekr-
[17/27] from: maarten:koopmans:surfnet:nl at: 12-Jun-2002 12:57
And you can get rugby at www.rebolforces.com/~erebol
--maarten
Gabriele Santilli wrote:
> Hi Alessandro,
> On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, 9:13:22 AM, you wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>
> Regards,
> Gabriele.
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[18/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 12-Jun-2002 14:29
-pekr- Wrote:
> Alessandro - you have to be new here, no? :-) Look, rebol base is just
> one - so - even your View contains sound, shell and library components.
> They are locked by license key.
Ok... and where is the difference for me?!
I have two options...
1) View does not contain sound, shell, etc...
2) View contain sound, shell, etc... but they are locked.
Result: I haven't those features!
Regards.
--Alessandro--
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[19/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 12-Jun-2002 14:23
Thank you!
--Alessandro--
=========================================================
> Hi Alessandro,
>
> On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, 9:13:22 AM, you wrote:
>
> rei> how do you think you can implement multitasking (even
cooperative, but
> rei> enough efficient, with an enough fast task-switching) in Rebol Core?
> rei> Using WAIT instruction? And in View that the documentation
suggest NOT
> rei> TO USE wait command?
> I think you got this wrong here. :) WAIT is the basis of /View's
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
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[20/27] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 12-Jun-2002 10:57
Hi Alessandro,
<< 2) View contain sound, shell, etc... but they are locked. >>
I think their special $49 pricing on View/Pro is gone, so it might be $99
now, but still not an outrageous fee if you need those features.
--Gregg
[21/27] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 12-Jun-2002 11:08
Hi Alessandro,
<< how do you think you can implement multitasking (even cooperative, but
enough efficient, with an enough fast task-switching) in Rebol Core?
Using WAIT instruction? And in View that the documentation suggest NOT
TO USE wait command? >>
WAIT shouldn't be a problem except in VID, as Gabriele pointed out. My
little test is very simple, and was based on an FSM engine I built. The
engine itself does event dispatching and, on my P900, processes about 10,000
events/sec. There's no need to WAIT for anything. Just do things in small
chunks to be a good co-op citizen.
<< If the standard Rebol/Core (royalty free version, base version) should
allow us to launch multiple programs (now I can do it in a script only
using Rebol/Command, with CALL instruction) I could launch two or more
Rebol programs and let them communicate (semaphore simulation,
data-sharing simulation) to let them cooperate. Yes, I know, what I'm
saying is weird, but it should be a good beginning to partially round
the multitasking problem. >>
Absolutely. That's not weird at all. Rugby is a solid IPC mechanism whether
local or remote.
--Gregg
[22/27] from: izkata:aol at: 12-Jun-2002 14:21
If the two Rebol programs can't communicate directly,
have them write to a .TXT file, and the other would look
for keywords do do something, write something else to
the file, etc,etc.
I have tried and used Rebol for about 2 years now (at least,
it seems like 2 years... I first started using it when /Core
couldn't even do a Forever loop) and this seems like an OK
idea, but I've never had a reason to try it.
Daniel S, 14 yrs old
[23/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 13-Jun-2002 8:49
> WAIT shouldn't be a problem except in VID, as Gabriele pointed out. My
> little test is very simple, and was based on an FSM engine I built. The
> engine itself does event dispatching and, on my P900, processes about
10,000
> events/sec. There's no need to WAIT for anything. Just do things in small
> chunks to be a good co-op citizen.
Ok. I will write a software dispacher to create a
multitasking-cooperative system.
Regards.
--Alessandro--
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[24/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 13-Jun-2002 8:45
> I think their special $49 pricing on View/Pro is gone, so it might be $99
> now, but still not an outrageous fee if you need those features.
>
> --Gregg
>
However... in this mailing-list many people ask to Carl to make
free-of-charge some Rebol resources and, as you told me, we obtain an
increment of the price of View/Pro version! I don't think this is the
right way.
Regards.
--Alessandro--
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[25/27] from: riusa:email:it at: 13-Jun-2002 8:59
> If the two Rebol programs can't communicate directly,
> have them write to a .TXT file, and the other would look
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> idea, but I've never had a reason to try it.
> Daniel S, 14 yrs old
Hi Daniel,
what you say is enought good. But this system has some problems. Infact:
1) two programs risk to attempt to write the file at the same time.
2) communication is slow.
3) the file must be accessible to every program (directory sharing?
sometimes is not possible!)
However your system is good to let two programs communicate with a
mechanism ONE QUESTION / ONE ANSWER.
bye!
--Alessandro--
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[26/27] from: rpgwriter::yahoo at: 13-Jun-2002 11:40
--- "[riusa--email--it]" <[riusa--email--it]> wrote:
> > I think their special $49 pricing on View/Pro is
> gone, so it might be $99
<<quoted lines omitted: 10>>
> think this is the
> right way.
Technically, I don't think its an increase, just that
the "cheap option" of a non-commercial $49 license was
removed; the commercial license was $99 before, IIRC,
and seems to be the only View/Pro available.
[27/27] from: rpgwriter:ya:hoo at: 13-Jun-2002 11:44
--- "[riusa--email--it]" <[riusa--email--it]> wrote:
> >
> > If the two Rebol programs can't communicate
<<quoted lines omitted: 21>>
> 1) two programs risk to attempt to write the file at
> the same time.
Use different files for each direction of
communication; for any given file, one program is the
reader, one the writer.
Or use lock and signal files to indicate when the file
is in use, when it has data wanting to be read, etc.
Or do both.
> 2) communication is slow.
This is true. One reason why TCP/IP is probably
better.
> 3) the file must be accessible to every program
> (directory sharing? sometimes is not possible!)
Again, true, and advantage TCP/IP.
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