English Syntax

quote.

The English language has changed its grammar rules in the past, based on popular usage. This is what makes English (American version, at least) a dynamic language as opposed to something like French which has a rigid definition which does not change. IMO the "period inside the quotes" rule will change, based on popular usage. I think the only people who write according to the current rule are authors, editors, and english professors. - Michael Jelinek

Michael Jelinek wrote:

I gather that the "punctuation outside the quotes" style is already becoming the norm in some circles, notably in technical writing and in Great Britain. This practice is referred to as logical quoting *. In the case above, REBOL is printing a sentence {He said "hi".}, evident from the period at the end, inside the quote marks: {} (in REBOL syntax, forgive me Ralph). That sentence quotes "He", who apparently says the word "hi" outside the context of a sentence, judging by the lack of a period in the quote. If REBOL had printed {He said "hi."}, it would have indicated a sentence _fragment_ that contained a quote of the _sentence_ "hi." - a subtle distinction that is lost with the old quoting style. Logical quoting goes well with precise writing. If I had used the old quoting style above the distinctions between the different sentences above would have been buried in the clutter of commas added to the various quoted sentences and phrases. We do want to encourage precision in writing, particularly among programmers, don't we? Language is a tool for thought, and modern humans must handle increasingly precise thought in modern culture. Anything that assists with that can't be all bad. :) Brian Hawley * See the "Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors" for more discussion of the differences between "New" or "Logical" quoting and the "Old" quoting style.

...[snip]

Actually, I understand from People Who Should Know that European usage (in the "officially sanctioned" sense) has already started swinging toward the more rational rule of: inside the quotes == text and punctuation being replicated outside the quotes == text and punctuation not being replicated The archaic "punctuation inside quotes" rule has NEVER made sense to me, and makes even less after a few decades of being a geek. Consider the difference in the sentences: The Unix/Linux command for removing a file is "rm," which corresponds to the MS-DOS command "erase." The Unix/Linux command for removing a file is "rm", which corresponds to the MS-DOS command "erase". Unfortunately, I've had to read technical books edited by tradition fiends who forced the use of the first style above. The result was, of course, to render the text nearly useless to anyone who didn't already know the subject well. Maybe the Chicago Manual of Style will enter the 21st century soon. -jn-

Well, who cares what the Oxford dictionary says, if the english insists on using odd quoting (along with odd measuring, driving on the wrong side of the street, strange clothing and terrible food) so be it. But the rest of us still use correct quoting in our languages. Same goes for parantheses btw. -- kolla

Note that the Chicago Manual of Style - 14th ed. states: 5.12 Quoted words and phrases falling at the end of a sentence can, in the vast majority of cases, take the terminating period within the closing quotation mark without confusion or misunderstanding (see also 5.13). In those rare instances when confusion is likely, the period not only may, but perhaps should, be placed after the quotation mark. NOTE the end of the quote: "... the period not only may, but perhaps SHOULD, be placed AFTER the quotation mark." (uppercased by me.) 5.13 ... The British style is strongly advocated by some American language experts. 5.86 ... In close textual studies and on similar rare occasions when the inclusion of a comma may cause confusion, the comma may be placed outside the quotation mark ... I believe that using your preferred non-ambiguous punctuation could be defended based on these quotes. Take Care, ;- Elan [ : - ) ] author of REBOL: THE OFFICIAL GUIDE REBOL Press: The Official Source for REBOL Books http://www.REBOLpress.com visit me at http://www.TechScribe.com

Seems to me the "logical" way to print it would be... He said "Hi.". it being a sentence quoted within a sentence... And how come nobody picked up on the incorrect case? (:

8/16/00 10:08:00 AM, [jelinem1--nationwide--com] wrote: