Portals?
[1/13] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 14-May-2001 21:55
On a rather long car journey today, I was wondering what the
killer application for Rebol might be. I was stumped!
It then came to me that the killer thing about Rebol was the
ease it makes of repacking web information. Even us
hobbyists can do this sort of stuff.
Now places like Yahoo turn themselves into portals, but
often their relevance is missed on me at the bottom of the
world. Sure it can be customised but not to any degree that
I find useful.
But if I could turn my Rebol desktop into a personal portal,
well, that would very useful.
So, I would have another icon called Portal in my left hand
panel that brings me to a desktop where my agents have
scoured the local newspaper sites, the weather, tv, stocks,
etc looking for pages that have changed, keywords, and
presenting them as panels on my main desktop. Sure I may
have to write the data gathering agents myself first off,
but later on I should be able to plug in agents written by
those who share similar interests.
Why don't I use a browser? I could except Rebol will scan
intelligently for what I want and present it to me ..
--
Graham Chiu
[2/13] from: ctaredu:crosswinds at: 14-May-2001 15:49
could we do some simple "gateway" type stuff first.. for e.g. check a yahoo
(heck, even a pop3 account) and if i get mail from a particular address, to
forward the subject line to another account (which could be an alias for my
SMS)
i was thinking on similar lines sometime back.. and came to the conclusion
that a lot of effort on the client side could be reduced if web pages
provides some "parse friendly" format.. then along came XML!!
regards
kinjal
[3/13] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 14-May-2001 22:39
On Mon, 14 May 2001 15:49:12 +0530
"Kinjal" <[ctaredu--crosswinds--net]> wrote:
> could we do some simple "gateway" type stuff first.. for
> e.g. check a yahoo
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> be an alias for my
> SMS)
That's pretty straightforward as long as Yahoo doesn't use
https :-)
> i was thinking on similar lines sometime back.. and came
> to the conclusion
> that a lot of effort on the client side could be reduced
> if web pages
> provides some "parse friendly" format.. then along came
> XML!!
Unfortunately many people don't see any advantage to this as
they want eyeballs and not robots visiting their sites!
--
Graham Chiu
[4/13] from: ctaredu:crosswinds at: 14-May-2001 16:40
what i meant was if the sites put their content in xml format.. it will be
easier for client applications to retrieve and display content. by making
it bot friendly, they are allowing the creation of customised browsing or
desktop portals.
the extra thing they could add would be some sort of authentication exchange
.. meaning "log in" facility.. so they could keep track of who is trying to
see their content.
the only problem with this is that it would require lots of changes ... what
say you and me and others on this list try to create a working prototype of
this kind of system.. or if someone knows of such initiative in progress.. i
would like to join there.
regards
[5/13] from: cyphre:volny:cz at: 14-May-2001 15:02
> the only problem with this is that it would require lots of changes ...
what
> say you and me and others on this list try to create a working prototype
of
> this kind of system.. or if someone knows of such initiative in progress..
i
> would like to join there.
>
Hi Kinjal and all,
Since many of us are trying to formulate some ideas regarding the future of
REBOL apps and developers I decided to post my simple thoughts to disscuss:
I'm trying to develop universal system environment called SWIS (small
windowing system) to gather energy from different rebol apps into one
user-point but I'm still at the beginning. The idea of this system is to
give developers simple but powerfull API for making their aplications work
together and gain many advantages from the whole system environment. So you
can use this environment for making portals, custom-user-desktops,
inter/intranet standartized gui environment, e-biz, presentations, any kind
of remote-control board or even for creating internet games/entertainment
software.
There are some basic features and ideas(which are more or less implemented):
-standardized but user fully customizable GUI for each application
-standard fully programmable desktop tools like:
* icon-system
*drag'n'drop system
*context-menu
*button-bay
*online bubble help
-multiuser system/system of user's rights/accesses
-system ports for each aplication(system friendly streaming/remote cotrol
between aplications...)
-video connection between different desktops(user A can watch content of
desktop/app of user B)
-system programmable keyboard handler
-SWIS REBOL console emulator
-sound system for registered view/users only(I have to save some money for
/View key soon(-: )
-snapshoting of the system(you should "freeze" your desktop anytime you want
and saving the "system snapshot" for your future purposes
-pseudo-multitasking(threading) driven by system task/schedule priotity
manager (you don't have to run separate rebol interpreter for each
aplication-the whole system is just one rebol process!)
-detailed developer's docs (this is really very important thing (-;)
and many more...
Me and REBOLek also have in developement DID - an dynamic interface dialect
which
will be implemented as a part of SWIS in future and replace the oficial
static VID from RT. I hope this will give another dimension to the system...
Since I haven't almost any support for developing I'm making SWIS in my
free time so the speed of developing depends on that. I'm looking for
anyone who will support my efforts. If you know
how to support my work have any ideas, comments, criticism or want to join
the project please let me know ;-) Anyway, I'll still continue the
developing of SWIS in the future even just for my personal usage.
May the REBOL be with you ;-)
Cyphre
ps: I would thank to:
-Petr Krenzelok for his webhosting support, ideas(heya PeKr (-;)
-REBOLek for great Iconbay for SWIS and some ideas
-Magnus Hagerman for interest in making some new GFX for SWIS(hello
Magnus, have you any news?)
-all people who send me their comments regarding SWIS
[6/13] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 14-May-2001 15:28
Richard Smolak wrote:
> There are some basic features and ideas(which are more or less implemented):
>
Hi cyphre :-)
could you please elaborate and comment below development points simply in the
manner - implemented - stalled - in the works - will be added later etc.?
Thanks.
> -standardized but user fully customizable GUI for each application
> -standard fully programmable desktop tools like:
<<quoted lines omitted: 33>>
> ps: I would thank to:
> -Petr Krenzelok for his webhosting support, ideas(heya PeKr (-;)
- webhosting is ok, it works as far as our linux server works, no work (almost)
needed :-)
- I can't see any changes to SWIS in last month or more? Is there actually any
development ongoing?
Also - see my next email ...
-pekr-
[7/13] from: cyphre:volny:cz at: 14-May-2001 18:02
> Hi cyphre :-)
Hi PeKr =)
> could you please elaborate and comment below development points simply in
the
> manner - implemented - stalled - in the works - will be added later etc.?
> Thanks.
OK here it is:
-standardized but user fully customizable GUI for each application (in
progress will be in the next version)
-standard fully programmable desktop tools like:
* icon-system (implemented - will need some enhancements ie.
user-custom-icons, app-icons , file-lists, not-stolen icons ;) etc.)
*drag'n'drop system (implemented)
*context-menu (in progress will be in the next version)
*button-bay (implemented - enhanced features in the next SWIS)
*online bubble help(in progress will be in the next version)
-multiuser system/system of user's rights/accesses(will be added later)
-system ports for each aplication(system friendly streaming/remote cotrol
between aplications...)(will be added later)
-video connection between different desktops(user A can watch content of
desktop/app of user B)(in progress but will be added later)
-system programmable keyboard handler (will be added later)
-SWIS REBOL console emulator (in progress)
-sound system for registered view/users only(I have to save some money for
/View key soon(-: )(no key no sound (-: )
-snapshoting of the system(you should "freeze" your desktop anytime you want
and saving the "system snapshot" for your future purposes (in progress -
maybe in the next version)
-pseudo-multitasking(threading) driven by system task/schedule priotity
manager (you don't have to run separate rebol interpreter for each
aplication-the whole system is just one rebol process!) (in progress - I'm
not sure if I can manage it without more asynchronous behavior of REBOL -
maybe it will pay to wait with developement till RT release next version of
/View?)
-detailed developer's docs (this is really very important thing (-;)(in
progress - the docs will be available with the nex version of SWIS)
>- I can't see any changes to SWIS in last month or more? Is there actually
any
> development ongoing?
>
I was on holydays and then busy in my work(working on project in Macromedia
Director :(( ) As I said, unfortunately REBOL and SWIS is my free time hobby
for now:(( but nowadays I'm full of new energy and ideas ready to continue
SWIS developing. I have some stuff done but I would like to make more
improvements for next release. I hope you will see next release soon (2-3
weeks? depends on my spare time) While waiting try to imagine transparent
smoked-glass SWIS windows with great design on your SWIS screen ;-)
Have fun,
Cyphre
[8/13] from: petr::krenzelok::trz::cz at: 14-May-2001 18:50
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Smolak" <[cyphre--volny--cz]>
To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 6:02 PM
Subject: [REBOL] Re: Portals?
> > Hi cyphre :-)
>
> Hi PeKr =)
;-) heh, what a fun, switching dialect:
[kdy zajdem na pivo? 8-)]
> >
> > could you please elaborate and comment below development points simply
in
> the
> > manner - implemented - stalled - in the works - will be added later
etc.?
> > Thanks.
>
> OK here it is:
> -video connection between different desktops(user A can watch content of
> desktop/app of user B)(in progress but will be added later)
> -system programmable keyboard handler (will be added later)
how is it going to be done? How do you want to process all the ongoing
events? I assume it will be wery difficult to achieve. Maybe you could use
any kind of batch mode and send you events in groups?
btw: what about /Core? Do you think (as I do :-) the /Core deserves event
system to have too? :-)
> -pseudo-multitasking(threading) driven by system task/schedule priotity
> manager (you don't have to run separate rebol interpreter for each
is it based upon sterling's proxy script mechanism?
> aplication-the whole system is just one rebol process!) (in progress - I'm
> not sure if I can manage it without more asynchronous behavior of REBOL -
what do you mean by "more asynchronous behavior of REBOL"?
> maybe it will pay to wait with developement till RT release next version
of
> /View?)
RT told you anything about certain upcoming features?
> >- I can't see any changes to SWIS in last month or more? Is there
actually
> any
> > development ongoing?
> >
heh, my friend, you completly left DID :-) How is it going? Have you (or
Rebolek) already started implementation?
> I was on holydays and then busy in my work(working on project in
Macromedia
> Director:(( ) As I said, unfortunately REBOL and SWIS is my free time
hobby
> for now:(( but nowadays I'm full of new energy and ideas ready to continue
> SWIS developing. I have some stuff done but I would like to make more
> improvements for next release. I hope you will see next release soon (2-3
> weeks? depends on my spare time) While waiting try to imagine transparent
> smoked-glass SWIS windows with great design on your SWIS screen ;-)
Ah, well, but be carefull - you already use hw scrolling. So what about
moving window content? I hope next version of SWIS will not require me to
upgrade to 2GHz Pentium machine :-)
Cheers,
-pekr-
[9/13] from: cyphre:volny:cz at: 14-May-2001 19:40
----- Original Message -----
From: Petr Krenzelok <[petr--krenzelok--trz--cz]>
To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 6:50 PM
Subject: [REBOL] Re: Portals?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Smolak" <[cyphre--volny--cz]>
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> ;-) heh, what a fun, switching dialect:
> [kdy zajdem na pivo? 8-)]
[tak co, kdy zase budes v Brne? rad bych te konecne poznal LIVE;-)]
> > -system programmable keyboard handler (will be added later)
>
> how is it going to be done? How do you want to process all the ongoing
> events? I assume it will be wery difficult to achieve. Maybe you could use
> any kind of batch mode and send you events in groups?
developer will be able to simple program for example shortcut-keys for each
fa apply but this is just my first idea...
> btw: what about /Core? Do you think (as I do :-) the /Core deserves event
> system to have too? :-)
>
Sure ;-) The REBOL/view event mechanism is really cool...it can be used not
just for refreshing graphics in /View.I believe RT will add possibility to
make custom events, redirect them etc. soon.
> > -pseudo-multitasking(threading) driven by system task/schedule priotity
> > manager (you don't have to run separate rebol interpreter for each
>
> is it based upon sterling's proxy script mechanism?
I was thinking about it but I still believe that there is better solution...
> > aplication-the whole system is just one rebol process!) (in progress -
I'm
> > not sure if I can manage it without more asynchronous behavior of
REBOL -
> what do you mean by "more asynchronous behavior of REBOL"?
>
When I've been experimented with WAIT command I've hit the REBOL barier
regarding rebol internal structure. I have little chat with Jeff about it
and here is his answer(I hope Jeff or RT don't kill me for this
publication):
---snip---
If REBOL had real threads then wait would simply suspend the thread for the
indicated time. That would allow
flattening" of nested waits to allow
parallel timeouts. With the non-threaded stack machine we currently have
this is not possible though."
---snip---
This is not something bad against REBOL. It is just a fact how Rebol
probably works. Most of us can live without it. But I still believe someday
this will be solved. I very appreciate RT's first step(asynchronous
protocols) to achieve multi-threaded REBOL. I'm looking for a new detailed
documentation about the asynchronous features in REBOL. BTW have anyone more
information about it?
> > maybe it will pay to wait with developement till RT release next version
> of
> > /View?)
>
> RT told you anything about certain upcoming features?
>
No ;-) I'm just silently believe them. They need some time...
> > >- I can't see any changes to SWIS in last month or more? Is there
> actually
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> heh, my friend, you completly left DID :-) How is it going? Have you (or
> Rebolek) already started implementation?
Well, REBOLek have something done. He showed me his own dynamic styles but I
think it is a lot of work for one person to make lots of styles. I would
prefer to construct basic dynamic positioning mechanism with editor and let
people to make some cool styles. Maybe I will become more active in this
field...
> > I was on holydays and then busy in my work(working on project in
> Macromedia
> > Director:(( ) As I said, unfortunately REBOL and SWIS is my free time
> hobby
> > for now:(( but nowadays I'm full of new energy and ideas ready to
continue
> > SWIS developing. I have some stuff done but I would like to make more
> > improvements for next release. I hope you will see next release soon
(2-3
> > weeks? depends on my spare time) While waiting try to imagine
transparent
> > smoked-glass SWIS windows with great design on your SWIS screen ;-)
>
> Ah, well, but be carefull - you already use hw scrolling. So what about
> moving window content? I hope next version of SWIS will not require me to
> upgrade to 2GHz Pentium machine :-)
ok,ok ... I was playing with transparency in SWIS on my [Celeron--533] box with
VERY interesting results so watch the new release ;-)
see ya,
Cyphre
[10/13] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 14-May-2001 20:17
> > > > Hi cyphre :-)
> > >
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> > [kdy zajdem na pivo? 8-)]
> [tak co, kdy zase budes v Brne? rad bych te konecne poznal LIVE;-)]
[ah, Brno, no tak to doufejme ze se potkame nez mi bude 40 :-))]
> > > -system programmable keyboard handler (will be added later)
> >
> > how is it going to be done? How do you want to process all the ongoing
> > events? I assume it will be wery difficult to achieve. Maybe you could
use
> > any kind of batch mode and send you events in groups?
>
> developer will be able to simple program for example shortcut-keys for
each
> fa apply but this is just my first idea...
ah, I commented wrong section. I mean - how do you want to distribute GUI
stuff? I just wonder if it would be possible to hook even port and send it
to other machine and do "insert" into its own event port :-) Distributed
drawing :-)
>>
> > btw: what about /Core? Do you think (as I do :-) the /Core deserves
event
> > system to have too? :-)
> >
>
> Sure ;-) The REBOL/view event mechanism is really cool...it can be used
not
> just for refreshing graphics in /View.I believe RT will add possibility to
> make custom events, redirect them etc. soon.
would be cool!
> > > -pseudo-multitasking(threading) driven by system task/schedule
priotity
> > > manager (you don't have to run separate rebol interpreter for each
> >
> > is it based upon sterling's proxy script mechanism?
>
> I was thinking about it but I still believe that there is better
solution...
but it is a little bit difficult with one event queue. Maybe async protocols
will help a bit ...
> > > aplication-the whole system is just one rebol process!) (in progress -
> I'm
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
> and here is his answer(I hope Jeff or RT don't kill me for this
> publication):
ha, I remember the statements - it was not Jeff imo, but Holger who said it
:-)
> ---snip---
> "If REBOL had real threads then wait would simply suspend the thread for
the
> indicated time. That would allow "flattening" of nested waits to allow
> parallel timeouts. With the non-threaded stack machine we currently have
> this is not possible though."
> ---snip---
>
> This is not something bad against REBOL. It is just a fact how Rebol
> probably works. Most of us can live without it. But I still believe
someday
> this will be solved. I very appreciate RT's first step(asynchronous
> protocols) to achieve multi-threaded REBOL. I'm looking for a new detailed
> documentation about the asynchronous features in REBOL. BTW have anyone
more
> information about it?
No info available yet, but IIRC Holger said something about Rebol 3.0? But
maybe I am wrong ...
> > heh, my friend, you completly left DID :-) How is it going? Have you (or
> > Rebolek) already started implementation?
> >
>
> Well, REBOLek have something done. He showed me his own dynamic styles but
I
> think it is a lot of work for one person to make lots of styles. I would
> prefer to construct basic dynamic positioning mechanism with editor and
let
> people to make some cool styles. Maybe I will become more active in this
> field...
could you allign here please, what is dynamic on your dynamic system? In
what ways it differs from VID?
>>> While waiting try to imagine transparent
> > > smoked-glass SWIS windows with great design on your SWIS screen ;-)
> >
> > Ah, well, but be carefull - you already use hw scrolling. So what about
> > moving window content? I hope next version of SWIS will not require me
to
> > upgrade to 2GHz Pentium machine :-)
>
> ok,ok ... I was playing with transparency in SWIS on my [Celeron--533] box
with
> VERY interesting results so watch the new release ;-)
transparency is very nice, especially glass effects ... but I assume some
gradiented glass effect background is going to be very CPU hungry ...
> see ya,
ciao :-)
-pekr-
PS: looking at our mail exchange I think it would make for good interview
:-)) pekr - former Amiga Review magazine columnist :-)
[11/13] from: m:koopmans2:chello:nl at: 14-May-2001 21:19
About async.... it is there in a premature form. Try using get-modes
'network-modes on a tcp port and then tinker with read-io and write-io. But
you shouldn't want that now because it is a lot of work for you use it. In
3.0 it will probably be handler-based.
I had to figure it out because I wrote a high performance crypto server (I
work for a large financial institution) with async I./O.
The number were impressive: 150 RSA encryptions/sec on a Sun 250 [=150
encryption clients/sec = extremely fast].
I'll distribute the middleware I wrote within a week or so (the message
broker). Perhaps I add a XML/SOAP interface to it just to annoy Micro$oft :)
--Maarten
[12/13] from: chris:starforge at: 14-May-2001 20:48
#14-May-01# Message from *Maarten Koopmans*:
Hi Maarten,
> --Maarten
I don't mean to moan, but was it really necessary to quote around 170
lines of text to add 10 lines related to one line half way through the
quote? Some of us still have to pay by the second I'm afraid ;)
Chris
--
New sig in the works
Explorer 2260, Designer and Coder
http://www.starforge.co.uk
[13/13] from: cyphre:volny:cz at: 15-May-2001 11:11
Hello pekr,
> ah, I commented wrong section. I mean - how do you want to distribute GUI
> stuff? I just wonder if it would be possible to hook even port and send it
> to other machine and do "insert" into its own event port :-) Distributed
> drawing :-)
>
Yes, it is possible to "stream" faces ;-)
> ha, I remember the statements - it was not Jeff imo, but Holger who said
it
> :-)
>
Ups, ofcourse it was Holger :-))
> I
> > think it is a lot of work for one person to make lots of styles. I would
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> could you allign here please, what is dynamic on your dynamic system? In
> what ways it differs from VID?
The main difference from VID is that developer doesnot have to specify any
absolute information regarding positioning and size of GUI elements in
layout. Everything will be relative and all elements will smartly react on
the size of a window. So we need to write own 'layout for that and also at
leas basic GUI elements/styles. Writing styles by-hand is a lot of work so
my idea is to make style-editor where you will be able to visualize your
custom GUI style and include it into system. Just first thoughs but I will
look at it right after new SWIS release...
have a nice day ;-)
Cyphre
Notes
- Quoted lines have been omitted from some messages.
View the message alone to see the lines that have been omitted