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Mailinglist Advantage

 [1/32] from: robert::muench::robertmuench::de at: 16-Mar-2007 11:01


Hi, even I don't want to start a concept-war, I'm happy to see the ML being much more used. And guys, I think it's the far better concept than AltME. Why? Because the ML supports threads! For me AltME is still a post-and-forget system. No persistent value to keep all the Rebol knowledge from you. AltME posting have a due-date for me, just a couple of days. And it takes much more time to keep up with it. Hence (even I know I won't succeed), let's use the ML again, like in the before AltME time. We will do all of us and new users a big flavour. -- Robert M. M=FCnch Mobile: +49 (177) 245 2802 http://www.robertmuench.de

 [2/32] from: sqlab:gmx at: 16-Mar-2007 11:44


I too favour the mail list over AltMe. Robert M. Münch wrote:

 [3/32] from: hallvard:ystad:gmai:l at: 16-Mar-2007 11:47


Ressurection of email! :) I too prefer the ML. HY 2007/3/16, sqlab <sqlab-gmx.net>:

 [4/32] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 16-Mar-2007 11:50


sqlab napsal(a):
> I too favour the mail list over AltMe. >
And I am warming to the idea too. Not only that, but ML is archived on rebol.org and as such can be searched. Good source of info imo ... -pekr-

 [5/32] from: pwawood:gmai:l at: 16-Mar-2007 18:53


On Friday, March 16, 2007, at 06:50 pm, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> And I am warming to the idea too. Not only that, but ML is archived on > rebol.org and as such can be searched. Good source of info imo ...
....and even has an A-Z index of subjects. Peter

 [6/32] from: Karim:elfounas:easybraine at: 16-Mar-2007 14:25


Selon Petr Krenzelok <petr.krenzelok-trz.cz>:
> sqlab napsal(a): > > I too favour the mail list over AltMe.
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> -pekr- > --
I connect very few to Altme because it doesn't go through the firewall infrastructure at my job place. And I kept all the emails of the mailing list because it's a valuable information repository. I'm also a supporter of mailing list ! Altme is a great product but the problem is that it allows communication only through a specific client software. I wish : - web interface to Altme (allowing to write messages) - web RSS feed - possibility to communicate with and Altme world through emails (each discussion of an Altme world can be a mailing list) - Web service (XML-RPC, SOAP,...) to allow building custom client softwares. -- Karim EL FOUNAS EasyBraine SA

 [7/32] from: dhsunanda:gm:ail at: 16-Mar-2007 13:53


Peter
> ....and even has an A-Z index of subjects.
For those of you who haven't sampled it, it's the topic index: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/ml-topic-index.r You can be notified of new messages via the RSS feed: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/boiler.r?display=rss-help And, if you don't like the searchable, indexed rendition of the Mailing List on REBOL.org, you could use the Library's API to add some extra processing just for yourself: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/documentation.r?script=lds-local.r#toc-37 What's not to like about the ML? :-) Sunanda.

 [8/32] from: edoconnor::gmail::com at: 16-Mar-2007 9:55


I prefer the mailing list for open REBOL discussion. At the same time, I recognize AltMe's value proposition and wish them continued success. On 3/16/07, Karim El Founas <Karim.elfounas-easybraine.com> wrote:

 [9/32] from: moliad::gmail at: 16-Mar-2007 9:27


hi all, well, I always was in favor of the ML over altme in the begining, but altme also is very usefull, for getting results, now. The ML is good for far reaching questions... but its also very cold and anonymous most people are just reading... a select few post, cause no one knows who is there and many dare not post for various reasons. also, replying to a mail is not the same than chatting... its easier to focus on a problem when you chat. on mail, you have to suppose, assume, etc. and speaking off topic, is well, bad netiquette. Altme and any chat/forum tool become warm and fuzzy and really create a sense of community. you log on and paf... you start chatting, keeping in touch, ask a question and can resolve the problem in real time with the various people on line. with altme, I usually get an answer in 1 hour, on the ML I usually get an answer within a few days... I know Reichart will use this to promote Qtask ;-) but I hate web apps... no matter how optmised they are... they are still always slow to start or run or refresh, etc... and they scale down when a lot of people are sharing a net connection... its painfull. I also need to have my net on all the time, which is not always feasible for me. I understand how the proxy issue is also an issue for many on altme... so its a tough decision in this point... both have merits. If altme had a web view and qtask had a standalone browser offline... either would be perfect (for me). I always wondered why RT never put up all public channels via free IOS servers... atm we would have hundreds of reblets for IOS as the public would be doing stuff... now its an obscure (almost dead) platform for the few and lucky. -MAx On 3/16/07, Ed O'Connor <edoconnor-gmail.com> wrote:

 [10/32] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 16-Mar-2007 17:10


On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:27:13 +0100, Maxim Olivier-Adlhoch <moliad-gmail.com> wrote:
> Altme and any chat/forum tool become warm and fuzzy and really create a > sense of community. you log on and paf... you start chatting, keeping in > touch, ask a question and can resolve the problem in real time with the > various people on line. with altme, I usually get an answer in 1 hour, on > the ML I usually get an answer within a few days...
Hi, that's the only argument I agree with where an IM system has a big advantage. But, remembering the older ML days, it mostly took only a couple of hours as well. And, the request wasn't lost or over-posted by new stuff. It's up to us to use the ML. As with every community thing, it starts working only if a critical mass of people is using it. And lately, a lot of us Rebolers were teared away to AltME. For myself, I will restart using the ML much more than in the past. -- Robert M. M=FCnch Mobile: +49 (177) 245 2802 http://www.robertmuench.de

 [11/32] from: moliad:gm:ail at: 16-Mar-2007 12:03


robert, just wanted to let you know that I am getting your mails with some codes like "=20" sending mail as unicode or any idea why? On 3/16/07, Robert M. Münch <robert.muench-robertmuench.de> wrote:
> > It's up to us to use the ML. As with every community thing, it starts > working only if a critical mass of people is using it. And lately, a lot > > of us Rebolers were teared away to AltME.
yep For myself, I will restart using the ML much more than in the past.
>
I am finding it fun to help out people on the ML too. -MAx

 [12/32] from: chris-ross:gill at: 16-Mar-2007 12:16


On Mar 16, 2007, at 9:27 AM, Maxim Olivier-Adlhoch wrote:
> well, I always was in favor of the ML over altme in the begining, but > altme
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> many > dare not post for various reasons.
I'll second this, though I've never much liked the Mailing List (or MLs in general). Though I can appreciate the stated benefits of the ML, it is not an adequate replacement for the immediacy of AltME. Yes, discussions can get muddied with distractions and tangents, that is the trade-off. There is perhaps a need for better tools to dig around the message data to preserve the important information. However, I find AltME a much better model for working with one or many to solve a problem quickly -- ML interactions are simply too slow and unwieldy. Though I suppose the more laboured approach to interaction with the ML does tend to suit more philosophical, public or beginner topics. Less noise, fewer initial barriers to participation etc. - Chris

 [13/32] from: jblake::arsenaldigital::com at: 16-Mar-2007 13:37


I always took ML as and "everyone participates" kind of thing in that everyone can read it. Even if the mails are 2 yrs old, it's readable. And the direct chats as a "developer" or "guru" area. Usually people get tired of seeing the same questions over and over. So they don't respond unless its "challenging" and I can understand that. I do it myself. I usually try to search the script examples then the ML archives for answers before I post. That, and I don't have a AltMe account. John

 [14/32] from: tim-johnsons:web at: 16-Mar-2007 10:39


I've always preferred the mailing list. There may be situations where two or more rebolers might agree via the ML or some other method to work on a particular project or problem via altme. MTCW tim -- Tim Johnson <tim-johnsons-web.com> Palmer, Alaska, USA

 [15/32] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 16-Mar-2007 19:35


On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:03:48 +0100, Maxim Olivier-Adlhoch <moliad-gmail.com> wrote:
> just wanted to let you know that I am getting your mails with some codes > like "=20" > > sending mail as unicode or any idea why?
Hi Max, I see it too. I don't have a clue where it comes from. AFAIK the postings are send with ISO-8859-15 encoding. Whatever that means... Robert

 [16/32] from: carl:cybercraft at: 16-Mar-2007 22:19


On Friday, 16-March-2007 at 18:53:23 Peter Wood wrote,
>On Friday, March 16, 2007, at 06:50 pm, Petr Krenzelok wrote: > >> And I am warming to the idea too. Not only that, but ML is archived on >> rebol.org and as such can be searched. Good source of info imo ... > >....and even has an A-Z index of subjects. > >Peter
Plus I read it! ;-) Well, mostly just the subject headings these days, but that's just pressure of time. But a different client for each of your interests just isn't sensible. Email is good enough for discussions and most people know how to use it, therefore it's good enough for discussing REBOL. -- Carl Read.

 [17/32] from: compkarori:g:mail at: 16-Mar-2007 22:19


Email is so retro. Better to build an open source Altme, and add RSS feeds, and email inputs. -- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsedirect.com Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

 [18/32] from: hallvard:ystad:babelserver at: 16-Mar-2007 21:30


Dixit Graham Chiu (21.29 16.03.2007):
>Email is so retro.
Retro is fancy these days. :)
>Better to build an open source Altme, and add RSS feeds, and email inputs.
Rebol.org has RSS feeds and a private area (log in!) around the ML... Add a chat client to rebol.org... (They come in rebol!) HY

 [19/32] from: tim-johnsons::web::com at: 16-Mar-2007 13:55


On Friday 16 March 2007 20:29, Graham Chiu wrote:
> Email is so retro.
Retro means tried, true and reliable.
> Better to build an open source Altme, and add RSS feeds, and email inputs.
Cool! Best of both worlds? 'Til that's done, ML remains my preference. cheers tim (old fart)
> -- > Graham Chiu > http://www.synapsedirect.com > Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system
-- Tim Johnson <tim-johnsons-web.com> Palmer, Alaska, USA

 [20/32] from: jasonic::nomadics::org at: 17-Mar-2007 1:20


- Threading - Folding - Tagging [Linking & Markup] - Graphics - Global Search Usenet and decent email software showed us all loong ago that message threading is essential. Folding likewise --people need to expand and collapse sections Tagging [Linking & Markup] -- so people can caption, quote, identify thread discussions and relevant sections of them [see *purple numbers* as a nifty transclusion inspired quoting method http://www.eekim.com/software/purple/purple.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transclusion] Graphics -- for crying out loud, how is one supposed to discuss user interfaces, widgets and a building new better GUI meta-system if you can;t even put graphics in line ?? Global Search -- and if AltME was hooked into accessibility idea instead of half baked stealth, rebol would and could be much easier to research and learn via Google etc. Like MANY applications AltMe is missing almost all the above.. what a pity. So much Rebol knowledge and interesting ideas flowing through, but lost effectively to anyone who was not participating at that time. The whole point of the internet is that it empowers people because when needed communication scales across time place and context. Hope it AltME is fixed soon. Yes live chat-based discussion is very useful.. but why not engineer it to be useful later? For example hook it up something like Chirga Mehta's Tagline Generator http://chir.ag/tech/download/tagline/ Why doesn't AltME PUBLISH to web in modern way -- 2007 style subscribable as RSS feed with a neat plug in? Why doesn't AltMe merge EasyViD so that Rebol code in line can be rendered? Why doesn't AltME use a page/book/tab metaphor like easy vide to allow one build REBOL projects - demos discussion and structure in one? Why doesn't AltME really show off what Rebol can do? One reason has to be that Rebol can't do easily things like folding trees, or threading. The GUI toolkits aren't really there yet. Never mind, Adobe Apollo, Flex and Connect are converging this summer and then we are going to see an explosion of cool cross-platform WEB-savvy collaboration apps which show what AltME coulda would shoulda been.. Is it too late? http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Apollo http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=adobe+apollo&btnG=Google+Search http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/ http://www.adobe.com/products/connect/ Jason

 [21/32] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 17-Mar-2007 9:37


On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:29:33 +0100, Graham Chiu <compkarori-gmail.com> wrote:
> Email is so retro.
Hi, but just being "retro" doesn't mean it's of bad quality. IMO it's quite easy (BTW: companies facing the same problem): 1. I want to read stuff "out of context". Meaning, I need a way to quick scan what's posted. On the ML I have the subject, on AltME I have nothing. I need to scan through the single posts. To time consuming. 2. I want to have as few access points to information as possible. I use Email every day, so handling a ML is a no brainer. If we could create a IM application that supports a subject and will collect the postings over a defined time range and post it as threaded postings to the ML, we would make a hughe step forward. How about such a simple project using RebService? I would be highly interested. -- Robert M. M=FCnch Mobile: +49 (177) 245 2802 http://www.robertmuench.de

 [22/32] from: compkarori:gmai:l at: 17-Mar-2007 10:24


I have already written Synapse chat ( okay, needs some debugging ) which is a IM application using BEER. BEER works now, Rebol/LNS is still a work in progress and awaits R3. I personally find it hard to read messages with =20 ( lack of proper decoding support by Gmail I guess since that's my email provider ) everywhere. On 3/17/07, Robert M. M=FCnch <robert.muench-robertmuench.de> wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 21:29:33 +0100, Graham Chiu <compkarori-gmail.com> > wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> "simple" project using RebService? I would be highly interested. > --
-- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsedirect.com Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

 [23/32] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 17-Mar-2007 10:18


On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 18:03:48 +0100, Maxim Olivier-Adlhoch <moliad-gmail.com> wrote:
> just wanted to let you know that I am getting your mails with some codes > like "=20" > > sending mail as unicode or any idea why?
Hi, I have further investigated this (BTW how to search for =20 with Google?). I have found this: --> SNIP START A third thing that can cause "messy" email is the fact that some older mail programs do not gracefully handle the advanced character sets that let us use "special characters" such as bullet marks, foreign letters, and other non-standard characters. Eudora and many other email programs use something called "quoted-printable" encoding to send these special characters, which requires that the receiving email program support an email standard called MIME. If the email program of your recipient is not MIME-compliant, then they might see text that looks like this:
> See Dick=20 >See Dick run. Run, Dick, run.
See Jane dance.=20 >Dance,.=20 Jane, dance. The solution is to turn off "quoted-printable" encoding for messages that are going to people with older mail programs. <-- SNIP END However I configure Opera in this way... -- Robert M. M=FCnch Mobile: +49 (177) 245 2802 http://www.robertmuench.de

 [24/32] from: dhsunanda:g:mail at: 17-Mar-2007 9:23


Graham:
> I personally find it hard to read messages with =20 ( lack of proper > decoding support by Gmail I guess since that's my email provider ) > everywhere.
We try our best on the ML archive to tidy up such annoyances, so threads can be read in peace, eg: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/ml-display-message.r?m=rmlQHQC **** The mailing list archive at REBOL.org already supports most of the features people are suggesting here, incuding an API. It doesn't quite do * personal tagging* (ie someone adding tags that others can search or index) -- but that would only be a few days effort if there were a genuine case for it.... ....The closest it gets is *favorites* -- check the link above while logged on and you'll see a prominent "Add to Favorites" link. Play around with the feature, and you'll find this help page.... http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/boiler.r?display=fav-edit-help ....And the pages for the _few_ people who have created *public* favorites, eg: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/fav-view.r?user-name=greggirwin All that is really needed is: 1. the ability to add tags to favorites 2. a few more people using the feature to create what are in effect their own site maps. Sunanda.

 [25/32] from: rebol-list2:seznam:cz at: 17-Mar-2007 17:20


Hello Maxim, just quick look at Robret's email headers explains that: ----------- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mime-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by km1428.keymachine.de ----------- I think some soft, which is doing something with his emails is adding these quoted-printable chars, but the encoding is still as 8bit - so it's not converted back. And I think it's not good to compare Altme with email - Altme is mainly secure crypted communication. Mailing list is fine if you want to do public chats, but with Altme you can chat privately as well and have realtime conversations which are not possible with email. d. Friday, March 16, 2007, 6:03:48 PM, you wrote: MOA> robert, MOA> just wanted to let you know that I am getting your mails with some codes MOA> like "=20" MOA> sending mail as unicode or any idea why?

 [26/32] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 17-Mar-2007 17:35


On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:20:36 +0100, rebOldes <rebol-list2-seznam.cz> wrote:
> just quick look at Robret's email headers explains that: > -----------
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> these quoted-printable chars, but the encoding is still as 8bit > - so it's not converted back.
Hi Oldes, that's interesting. The km1428.keymachine.de is my machine. I use ASSP spam filter with SENDMAIL on this machine. I will checkout if I can find the source of the problem. Thanks for pointing this out. Robert

 [27/32] from: david:may10:ntlworld at: 17-Mar-2007 19:37


Hello Jason, Friday, March 16, 2007, 4:20:35 PM, you wrote:
> - Threading > - Folding
<<quoted lines omitted: 42>>
> http://www.adobe.com/products/connect/ > Jason
it would seem , yes, ITS TO LATE. for all the good rebol could have been, its missed so many chances to progress, and theres far more been typed about why do you learn/make/do it then it would have taken the can-do's to simply say right, you want a simple cli to GUI script , here it is, build on that type thinking..... its a shame that the so called internet2.0 has gained so much mindshare and growing by the day ,so much so that people dont even know or care what rebol can do if you write the code. -- Best regards, david mailto:david.may10-ntlworld.com

 [28/32] from: hallvard:ystad:babelserver at: 17-Mar-2007 21:10


Dixit rebOldes (17.20 17.03.2007):
>And I think it's not good to compare Altme with email - Altme is >mainly secure crypted communication. Mailing list is fine if you want >to do public chats, but with Altme you can chat privately as well and >have realtime conversations which are not possible with email.
Private chat cold easily be added to rebol.org: http://www.compkarori.com/reb/ HY

 [29/32] from: andreas:bolka:gmx at: 17-Mar-2007 22:56


Saturday, March 17, 2007, 5:35:56 PM, Robert wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:20:36 +0100, rebOldes <rebol-list2-seznam.cz> > wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> will checkout if I can find the source of the problem. Thanks for > pointing this out. Robert
this very message came through properly, jfyi. -- Best regards, Andreas

 [30/32] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 18-Mar-2007 9:02


On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 20:37:53 +0100, david may <david.may10-ntlworld.com> wrote:
> it would seem , yes, ITS TO LATE.
Hi, I don't think it's to late, it's never to late because there are a lot of opportunities, every day, every hour. It "just" takes people to do it.
> for all the good rebol could have been, its missed so many chances to > progress,
But let's face it, there is always the pattern "if feature XYZ would be available I could do ABC". I think the other way around: If I need feature XYZ to continue and it's not there I either add it, use an other approach etc.
> its a shame that the so called internet2.0 has gained so much > mindshare and growing by the day ,so much so that people dont even > know or care what rebol can do if you write the code.
That's true. And, IMO let's take RebService and add proxy support to it (I will help, even I'm not a network guru at all) and implement some services and tell the world. It's really cool stuff. I have added it to my application for online support, bug reporting will follow etc. I'm implementing such services 50 times faster than others. The only thing missing, is proxy support. -- Robert M. M=FCnch Mobile: +49 (177) 245 2802 http://www.robertmuench.de

 [31/32] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 18-Mar-2007 9:02


On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 22:56:20 +0100, Andreas Bolka <andreas.bolka-gmx.net> wrote:
> this very message came through properly, jfyi.
I saw it to. Maybe the problem exists only for new posted messages, and not the once I answer to. I will keep an eye on it. Robert

 [32/32] from: henrik:webz:dk at: 20-Mar-2007 11:01


On 16/03/2007, at 11:44, sqlab wrote:
> I too favour the mail list over AltMe.
In a sense, each group in AltME can be considered a thread, but a realtime chatting program does not lend much to a threading system without becoming rather complex to handle with thousands of threads. I've always hated mailing lists and strongly favour AltME, because it allows much more intensive discussion and I usually get answers very quickly, within seconds or minutes. Perhaps it's because I'm much more used to chatting, rather than the delayed non-realtime messaging system that email is. It also has a lot of potential with attaching information, such as a code snippet repository, checklists, links, integrated calendar, filesharing and you can quickly create private discussion areas with the people of your own choice, but I never understood why the RAMBO bug database access was taken out of AltME! It was far superior to the RAMBO web version. Until the recent downtime, it was the most reliable way for me to communicate with the outside world. It would be a good idea for SafeWorlds to come up with some tools to very quickly move serving from one host to another or at least allow realtime mirroring. I hope Reichart and company are thinking up a good plan for these cases. :-) -- Regards, Henrik Mikael Kristensen

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