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Windows Crash

 [1/25] from: mattsmac:hotm:ail at: 29-Sep-2003 8:23


Does anybody know any common circumstances in REBOL that would cause a REBOL program to crash in windows. You know, that do/don't send info to microsoft crash? I'm not really even sure where to start looking to fix something like that. Matt _________________________________________________________________ Get McAfee virus scanning and cleaning of incoming attachments. Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es

 [2/25] from: carlos:lorenz:bol at: 29-Sep-2003 9:40


I have some crashes eventually but I guess this is Windows problems, since REBOL under Linux is just fine Carlos
> Does anybody know any common circumstances in REBOL tha
t would cause a REBOL
> program to crash in windows. You know, that do/don't s
end info to microsoft
> crash? I'm not really even sure where to start looking
to fix something
> like that. > > Matt > > _______________________________________________________
__________
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> Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > -- > To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to > rebol-
[request--rebol--com] with unsubscribe as the subject.
>
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 [3/25] from: odycy:sympatico:ca at: 29-Sep-2003 9:38


Matt - I've never experienced a REBOL cause, but I'd be real happy to send you a Gb or two of Windows bugs that crash useful stuff like AltMe SafeWorlds & other Rebol apps. :) - Pete On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:23:35 -0400, Matt MacDonald <[mattsmac--hotmail--com]> wrote:
> Does anybody know any common circumstances in REBOL that would cause a > REBOL
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
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 [4/25] from: mattsmac:hotma:il at: 29-Sep-2003 9:48


I'm not saying it's a bug at all. It could just be something I'm doing. I just wanted to know if any particular situations, loops, timers, engages, etc. have a tendency to cause this problem Matt
>From: "Matt MacDonald" <[mattsmac--hotmail--com]> >Reply-To: [rebol-list--rebol--com]
<<quoted lines omitted: 15>>
>To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to >[rebol-request--rebol--com] with unsubscribe as the subject.
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 [5/25] from: amicom:sonic at: 29-Sep-2003 7:12


Matt, I've seen it happen when Rebol consumes too much memory. Check out system/stats to see how much memory your program is consuming (maybe keep a running logfile to see if this is the case). I wrote an application that started to do strange things including Windows system crashes when memory consumption got above 100MB. There are ways to get Rebol to minimize memory usage. I find this becomes much more of an issue when writing large apps or long-running apps. Bohdan "Bo" Lechnowsky Lechnowsky Technical Consulting At 09:48 AM 9/29/03 -0400, you wrote:

 [6/25] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 29-Sep-2003 16:13


Hi Matt, On Monday, September 29, 2003, 3:48:27 PM, you wrote: MM> I'm not saying it's a bug at all. It could just be something I'm doing. I Well, if it crashes, it's probably a bug. However, it's not easy to say what it could be... A known bug which causes crashes is on LOAD when supplying it the output of MOLD/ALL, especially if you molded a lot of objects. Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/

 [7/25] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 29-Sep-2003 16:32


Hi Matt, Although Rebol interpret is very stable and good piece of code there are still some bugs which could crash it. here are two example which bothers me in View(in both try to press "hide box button"): FIRST CRASH EXAMPLE a: make face [ size: 50x50 color: red ] b: make face [ color: blue pane: [a] ] view layout [ bx: box with [ pane: [b] ] button "hide box" [ hide bx ] ] SECOND CRASH EXAMPLE a: make face [size: 50x50 color: red] view layout [ box with [ color: blue pane: reduce [a] ] button "hide box" [ hide a/parent-face ] ] Also drawing filled polygons bigger than visible area of window using DRAW dialect can cause problems like strange console message "not-enough memory" like: view layout [box 200x200 effect [draw [fill-pen red polygon 406x-672 227x43 1022x782 fill-pen blue polygon 406x-672 1022x782 -44x126]]] regards, Cyphre PS: there is probably more situations in other fields than graphics how to crash Rebol but I remember those because I spent lot of time when debugging them...

 [8/25] from: mattsmac:hotma:il at: 29-Sep-2003 10:53


What are these ways to minimize memory usage? Matt, I've seen it happen when Rebol consumes too much memory. Check out system/stats to see how much memory your program is consuming (maybe keep a running logfile to see if this is the case). I wrote an application that started to do strange things including Windows system crashes when memory consumption got above 100MB. There are ways to get Rebol to minimize memory usage. I find this becomes much more of an issue when writing large apps or long-running apps.
>From: "Matt MacDonald" <[mattsmac--hotmail--com]> >Reply-To: [rebol-list--rebol--com]
<<quoted lines omitted: 37>>
>To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to >[rebol-request--rebol--com] with unsubscribe as the subject.
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 [9/25] from: mattsmac:h:otmail at: 29-Sep-2003 13:59


Hey Cyphre, does any of this look crash worthy to you?? im pretty sure this is where the crash is happening, but it's not consistent, sometimes it will happen right away, other times it will take 3 or so hours. files is a text-list probe-messages: func [/local tempmsg emessages j k l m] [ insert remote2 encrypt "Send IDs" wait remote2 clear messages while [record: pick remote2 1][append messages decrypt record] clear files/data clear msg_ids msgs: [] clear msgs for i 1 (length? messages) 5 [ j: i + 1 k: i + 2 l: i + 3 m: i + 4 tempmsg: make msg_info [ msgid: messages/:i from: messages/:j fromid: messages/:k subject: messages/:l date: copy/part messages/:m (length? messages/:m) - 5 ] replace/all tempmsg/date "." ":" insert msg_ids tempmsg while [(length? tempmsg/date) < 25] [append tempmsg/date " "] while [(length? tempmsg/from) < 25] [append tempmsg/from " "] emessages: rejoin [tempmsg/date "" tempmsg/from "" tempmsg/subject] insert msgs emessages ] append files/data msgs ;update-text-list files files/update ] Thanks, Matt Hi Matt, Although Rebol interpret is very stable and good piece of code there are still some bugs which could crash it. here are two example which bothers me in View(in both try to press "hide box button"): FIRST CRASH EXAMPLE a: make face [ size: 50x50 color: red ] b: make face [ color: blue pane: [a] ] view layout [ bx: box with [ pane: [b] ] button "hide box" [ hide bx ] ] SECOND CRASH EXAMPLE a: make face [size: 50x50 color: red] view layout [ box with [ color: blue pane: reduce [a] ] button "hide box" [ hide a/parent-face ] ] Also drawing filled polygons bigger than visible area of window using DRAW dialect can cause problems like strange console message "not-enough memory" like: view layout [box 200x200 effect [draw [fill-pen red polygon 406x-672 227x43 1022x782 fill-pen blue polygon 406x-672 1022x782 -44x126]]] regards, Cyphre PS: there is probably more situations in other fields than graphics how to crash Rebol but I remember those because I spent lot of time when debugging them... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt MacDonald" <[mattsmac--hotmail--com]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 3:48 PM Subject: [REBOL] Re: Windows Crash
>I'm not saying it's a bug at all. It could just be something I'm doing.
I
>just wanted to know if any particular situations, loops, timers, engages, >etc. have a tendency to cause this problem
<<quoted lines omitted: 16>>
> > > >_________________________________________________________________
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 [10/25] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 30-Sep-2003 9:30


> I've seen it happen when Rebol consumes too much memory. Check out
[...]
> consumption got above 100MB. There are ways to get Rebol to minimize
I had rebol go above 600MB a few times without problems. maybe its more related to the sheer number of contexts, declared words, or the total amount of memory handling the application has to handle at once. Carl also said his list handling script (before being off-lined) would run months-on-end without needing any attention... I just noticed that version 1.2.10 is MUCH better at crashes and many of my prior issues have been fixed. but as Cyphre detailed, there are still some more obscure crashes possible... the draw dialect bug is still the more dangerous IMHO. I think most crashes occur only if a view face is visible. I think People not using view won't have any crash in their lifetime. could just be me though. -Max

 [11/25] from: eskape:tdcadsl:dk at: 30-Sep-2003 20:24


I'm running Windows 2000 with all service packs and updates installed. A simple way to "freeze" REBOL/View 1.2.1.3.1 on my machine is: - Open the console - Type "help rebol" and it hangs :-( I gives me the feeling that it's a bit bit early for commercial aplications. It works fine in REBOL/Core 2.5.6.3.1:
>> help xxx
No information on xxx (word has no value)
>> help rebol
REBOL is an object of value: version tuple! 2.5.6.3.1 build date! 5-Aug-2003/17:07:52-7:00 product word! Core components block! length: 9 words object! [unset! error! datatype! context! native! action! ... license string! {REBOL End User License Agreement IMPORTANT. READ ... options object! [home script path boot args do-arg link-url server... user object! [name email home words] script object! [title header parent path args words] console object! [history keys prompt result escape busy tab-size b... ports object! [input output echo system serial wait-list] network object! [host host-address] schemes object! [default Finger Whois Daytime SMTP POP IMAP HTTP F... error object! [throw note syntax script math access command resv... standard object! [script port port-flags email] view none! none stats native! System statistics. Default is to return total memo... locale object! [months days] user-license object! [name email id message]
>>
Steffen (of Denmark)

 [12/25] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 30-Sep-2003 12:45


Hi Steffen, SKP> A simple way to "freeze" REBOL/View 1.2.1.3.1 on my machine is: SKP> - Open the console SKP> - Type "help rebol" SKP> and it hangs :-( SKP> I gives me the feeling that it's a bit bit early for commercial aplications. SKP> It works fine in REBOL/Core 2.5.6.3.1: If you wait long enough, you should see results. The issue is that 'REBOL is synonymous with 'system and under View system contains VID, which contains some circular references. -- Gregg

 [13/25] from: brett:codeconscious at: 1-Oct-2003 10:52


Later experimental versions REBOL/View deal better with outputting these circular references to the screen. Regards, Brett.

 [14/25] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 1-Oct-2003 9:58


Hi Steffen, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steffen Kahr Pedersen" <[eskape--tdcadsl--dk]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:24 PM Subject: [REBOL] Re: Windows Crash
> I'm running Windows 2000 with all service packs and updates installed. > > A simple way to "freeze" REBOL/View 1.2.1.3.1 on my machine is: > > - Open the console > - Type "help rebol" > > and it hangs :-( >
this behaviour is fixed in later versions(experimental but stable as the official last 1.2.1) I tried it under View 1.2.5, 1.2.8 and 1.2.10 and it works without problem like in Core 2.5.6 as you stated. I believe RT will release new official View 1.3 version soon... regards, Cyphre

 [15/25] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 1-Oct-2003 9:53


Hi Steffen, On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, 8:24:08 PM, you wrote: SKP> A simple way to "freeze" REBOL/View 1.2.1.3.1 on my machine is: It's not that it is freezing, it is that you're asking it to MOLD a *HUGE* object a a big number of circular references (which View 1.2.1's MOLD does not handle at all). The result is it trying to produce an infinite string. Newer versions are better at molding circular references, and if you have enough memory you'll probably be able to MOLD the system object in /Core or in /View if you have not shown the desktop at startup, but you won't be able to MOLD the system object if you have shown any face in /View as there are simply too many circular references. SKP> I gives me the feeling that it's a bit bit early for commercial aplications. I have delivered a number of commercial applications and will continue to do so. It has saved me a LOT of time and work and will continue to do so. YMMV. :-) Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/

 [16/25] from: amicom:sonic at: 1-Oct-2003 6:59


At 09:53 AM 10/1/03 +0200, you wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, 8:24:08 PM, you wrote: >SKP> I gives me the feeling that it's a bit bit early for commercial
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
>Regards, > Gabriele.
I have also delivered a number of commercial applications with great success. As with any language, there are some things you should simply avoid doing. Bohdan "Bo" Lechnowsky Lechnowsky Technical Consulting

 [17/25] from: eskape:tdcadsl:dk at: 2-Oct-2003 14:20


Hi Gabriele & Bohdan, Thank you for your comments re commercial applications. I should be very happy to be convinced. I'm also curious as to what type af applications? Regards Steffen

 [18/25] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 2-Oct-2003 8:41


hi, sorry for inserting myself in the discussion, but here are example of commercial applications which I have done I have programmed and sold a rebol/pro application which controls a broadcast Didgital disk (video) recorder and transfers images to it via a tcp channel OR a direct hardware scsi disk interface by using the low-level aspi.dll. The interface uses an edit list so that you can insert clips anywhere in the DDR without having to punch numbers... I also have personal commercial applications which handle 3d animtion and compositing render farm, as well a post-production shot management tracker, which even handles rendering and flipping of various post-production tools without having to actually open those applications. -MAx --- You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution, but in the end, being part of the problem is much more fun.

 [19/25] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 2-Oct-2003 14:44


Hi Steffen, On Thursday, October 2, 2003, 2:20:42 PM, you wrote: SKP> I'm also curious as to what type af applications? Mainly custom applications developed specifically for a client. The kind of stuff most people does in VB. ;) Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/

 [20/25] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 2-Oct-2003 15:07


Steffen Kahr Pedersen wrote:
>Hi Gabriele & Bohdan, > >Thank you for your comments re commercial applications. > >I should be very happy to be convinced. > >I'm also curious as to what type af applications? > >Regards Steffen >
Whatever ones :-) Your thinking should be lead in a following way - what other tool would you use if it was not rebol? Are you familiar with such tool? I expect we talk tools league of Delphi, VB etc. E.g. we used here CA-Visual Objects (as I come from Clipper world). So, let's start with pekr's rules :-) - don't trust stupid argumenting such as - "if you use VB, don't even dare calling yourself a programmer". Good coder would never tell you such sentense, as he/she knows, that right tool at right time at your hand is what matters. What is more - if you are not familiar with those tools, forget you start utilising your tool easily. It does not matter you know what is object programming about - you have to learn classes, events, their logic, etc. If you already came to rebol, it is clear you want to do some apps "your way". E.g. with VO, we scrapped all templates and produced our logic - I hate those templates which can solve easy cases for you, but once you go deeper and deeper in a problem, you end-up with kludgy code. So in the end we had some small IS sales system done. Do you think our users care what it was programmed in, or how sophisticated object logic it uses? :-) I use "minimalistic" aproach - ask yourself : - does it work? If so, who cares what sophisticated tool you used - users/customers don't! - Is it fast enough? Now I mean mainly speed. There is old trade-off of speed of scripting languages. Only morons can claim such things nowadays, at least for general apps. Fast enough is simply fast enough. I often can hear - but my C++ code would work 10x faster. Well, ppl claiming so very often forget the fact, that today's PC is x times faster than yesterday's server ;-) so - for general business apps, rebol is more than ideal. Forget some video, sound capabilities - we are slow and not there yet, forget writing MS Office clone using rebol etc. - don't try to provide your app with native OS skins! Well - that is my suggestion. I know some ppl think otherwise, but I can tell you, that my ppl notice my apps, because they look slightly different. E.g. REBOL IOS has very pleasant feeling - if it would have native Windows look - it would just look as other windows based app ... so - use the difference as your advantage! - Does it behave consistently? And now take care! VID is still not consistent in some cases. While I prefer different look of app, I know that what ppl hate is different app behavior (I talk keyboard navigation here). But there are some patches mainly from Romano, which help in that area. And - after all - once you will become more fluent with View, you can change lot's of things yourself. - more styles - ask Cyphre for tree-view, list-view, tabs, menu etc styles - they are very nice, even in beta. There was VID 1.3 community effort but it is not finished. I know RT wants to do something in that regard, as current VID stopped imo in some 80% of perfection (missing styles, some inconsistencies, capabilities ...) - time to market - I can bet that Rebol will allow you to very quickly prototype your app. You will be designing it around your thoughts. Rebol is first environment which provides me with such feeling. e.g. in VO I had to wrap my thinking around strict object logic. Rebol is free-form. - what rebol lacks a bit is simple built-in database (IIRC Gabriele did something in that regard but I don't know its state). So it depends what are your intentions. Rebol/Command has ODBC interface, using View/Pro you can use Firebird wrapper and even with non-profi Rebol products you can use e.g. Postgress and MySQL - we have cool folk called DocKimbel here, who did really nice drivers ... Enjoy reboling! -pekr-

 [21/25] from: carlos:lorenz:bol at: 2-Oct-2003 10:23


Em Qui 02 Out 2003 14:44, Gabriele Santilli escreveu: :)> Hi Steffen,
> On Thursday, October 2, 2003, 2:20:42 PM, you wrote: > SKP> I'm also curious as to what type af applications?
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer > Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/
-- Carlos Lorenz -- Kurumin é 10 www.kurumin.org

 [22/25] from: antonr:iinet:au at: 3-Oct-2003 0:05


Matt, Check out insert/dup for a bit of optimization. (Not saying this will remove the crash, but it's probably better anyway.) insert/dup tail tempmsg/date (25 - length? tempmsg/date) " " Anton.

 [23/25] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 2-Oct-2003 10:34


> - don't try to provide your app with native OS skins! Well - > that is my suggestion. I know some ppl think otherwise, but I can tell > you, that my ppl notice my apps, because they look slightly different. > E.g. REBOL IOS has very pleasant feeling - if it would have native Windows look - it > would just look as other windows based app ... so - use the > difference as your advantage!
can't agree more. I've had the same reaction with my sheet-metal skin. Many people identify to things which make them stand out. Winamp is a good example of this. once ppl know they can switch skins and they see the truly terrific skins that are haging around on the net, they get addicted and will install the skin that matches their personality the most... -MAx

 [24/25] from: amicom:sonic at: 2-Oct-2003 9:16


Steffen, Some of the commercial applications I've written: A recruiting database that automates a number of functions for the recruiters including automated faxing and emailing. Contains close to 1,500,000 candidates and over 500,000 communication records including resumes in .doc and .pdf formats. Allows automatic branding of resumes with a corporate logo and disclaimer when sending out to prospective employers. Many, many other functions. Caller ID application that notifies all specified computers on a network when calls are coming in and who the call is from. Only one computer needs a caller ID capable modem. Allows storage and retrieval of notes on specific calls and callers so anyone in the office can know who handled the caller in the past and what the call was about immediately. Point of Sale application that allows for easy invoicing, sales reports, and customer contact information. Easy website builder. Takes a directory on a local computer and turns each subdirectory into its own page automatically organizing the text files and pictures in that directory into the page. See http://www.lechnotech.com for an example of a site built with this tool. (Sorry the site doesn't look so good, haven't had time to polish it up yet.) Terminal emulation program that connects to a mainframe through a serial port and allows a customizable interface on a PC with extended functionality instead of using a dumb terminal. And there's lots more, but I need to get busy so I can support my family. :-) Bohdan "Bo" Lechnowsky Lechnowsky Technical Consulting At 02:20 PM 10/2/03 +0200, you wrote:

 [25/25] from: SunandaDH:aol at: 2-Oct-2003 14:31


> hi, sorry for inserting myself in the discussion,
Me too. I've done a number of substantial applications. None of them technically commercial in that they haven't been sold. But they are in daily use by non-profits. One application you can take a look at is the REBOL Script Library: http://www.rebol.org (Still work in progress, so there are some rough edges). I didn't do that all on my own -- lots of code from Volker and Gregg. Plus we were very easily able to integrate Andrew's eText and Robert's Make-doc-pro despite them being written as stand-alone non-CGI programs. And we develop of different platforms (Windows, Linux; Apache, Xitami) for a production environment different to anything any of us use (UNIX, Apache). With one minor problem (due to the production version of Core) it was remarkable how cross-platform REBOL is. As a collaborative development environment for CGI applications, it takes a lot of beating, Sunanda.

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