Rebol on PocketPC ?? >> re: IPAQ ++
[1/8] from: jasonic:nomadics at: 17-Feb-2005 9:13
I am posting this again, as my first attempt vanished into the Rebol maling list void...
Where do they go ?
> Rebol/View is not yet available for Windows/CE.
> Far from having a small memory footprint, Rebol consumes large chunks of
> memory. (That's why there isn't a Palm OS version).
Thanks.. I see. I'd always thought and read about Rebol as being tiny and
lightweight. Now I am really wondering.
How much memory are we talking about?
How variable is Rebol's use of memory?
How does it compare to other PocketPC development tools?
I still find it hard to believe that Rebol cannot compete well with other
development tools.
More importantly that cool applications developed with Rebol cannot compete
with others.
Customers [aka commercial end-users] rarely care what language/SDK was used.
They just want performance design features and price!
So there is now a booming PocketPC market already for so many cool little
personal database and messaging applications.
Reminds me of HyperCard and then the ActiveX / COM market about 9 years
ago.
--- Gadget World ---
Apple's new OSX10.4 'Tiger'
http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/index.html
is now touting something like that also with 'Dashboard'
http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html
Dashboard Gadgets [Widgets] are created using a mix of HTML, JavaScript, and
CSS
Dashboard seems at first glance to be a rip-off of Konfabulator
http://www.konfabulator.com/
Some differences are discussed here
http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator
Both are the excellent examples of what Rebol/View applets should be, given
a fertile environment [Quartz] and design attitude.
--- REBOL/PocketPC ??? ---
jc >> You have a real advantage / market opportunity here :-)
chris > I think so too. PocketPCs could be the niche REBOL has been
searching
for a long time.
Yes and as I read though the lists and reviews of the PocketPC commercial
and freeware apps, they almost all sound like could/should/would be
REBOL/View apps.
The exceptions are the ones which play video or record sound. Both areas
where REBOL has nothing to offer -- unless it uses Command to call some
library.
In fact that's what most PocketPC apps are doing - they seem to be nice
little dedicated wrappers for .NET dlls
for example 'HanDBase' is a cool database tool
http://www.ddhsoftware.com/
check out their tutorials at
http://www.ddhsoftware.com/TrainingVideos/HanDBase/
[flash]
Sites which give a quick flavor of what PocketPC market might be for Rebol
apps are
PocketPC magazine
http://www.pocketpcmag.com/_top/
PocketNow ["it's all about portability"]
http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php
PocketPCSoft NET [software and freeware]
http://www.pocketpcsoft.net/
PocketGear
http://www.pocketgear.com/index.asp
DevvBuzz.com [Handheld development]
http://www.devbuzz.com/content/
--- TabletPC ---
Another platform where REBOL could do well is TabletPC. There is no REBOL
porting time and no memory restrictions like Pocket PC devices.
Some of the current TabletPC are fabulous, though still a little expensive.
Nicest one I've seen so far is Electrovaya Scribbler 2010 Tablet PC
http://www.geek.com/hwswrev/hardware/electrotab/
http://www.mobiletechreview.com/notebooks/electrovaya.htm
Easy to see how these could be worth their weight in gold in the Medicine
and elsewhere.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/tabletpc/default.mspx
http://thetabletpc.net/
http://www.pencomputing.com/TabletPC/
--- Flash ---
....and yes Flash can now support all of the above now.
MDM have just released 'Zinc' for PocketPC, as well finally their cross
platform compiler for [desktop] Zinc applications [MacOSX, Windows]
http://www.multidmedia.com/software/zinc/
The Zinc feature-set includes 600 script functions, freeing Flash from its
very limited browser sandbox, and putting it much closer Rebol
http://www.multidmedia.com/software/zinc/#03
http://www.multidmedia.com/software/zinc/pocketpc/
Meanwhile Macromedia have just signed a deal with Nokia for 'FlashLite'.
They are showing off this week at 3GSM
http://macromedia.com/devnet/devices/?promoid=home_dev_3gsm_021405
At first glance FlashLite sounds great, until one learns that it is really
just Flash 4 [c.1999 or early 2000] !
It works but the old programming syntax sucks so this is a horrible step
back for programmers now used to FlashMX and Actionscript 2.0
Fyi, the 'standard' Flash player now running almost everywhere on the web is
version 7.
What this all says to me is that when it comes to _GUI development
environments_, the memory footprint and graphics performance on phones and
some handhelds is still lagging years nearly 5 behind the available tool
kits.
The Sharp Zaurus runs Linux and is a rare exception, but costs $1000.
http://www.sharpusa.com/products/TypeLanding/0,1056,116,00.html
PocketPC land Microsfots other Mobile versions strongly leverage .NET in
slightly modified form .
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/pocketpc/default.mspx
Can anyone tell me how/if Rebol/View/Command could leverage this easily or
not?
thanks, Jason
[2/8] from: hallvard::ystad::oops-as::no at: 17-Feb-2005 9:40
Dixit "Jason Cunliffe" <[jasonic--nomadics--org]> (Thu, 17 Feb
2005 09:13:21 +0100):
>I am posting this again, as my first attempt vanished
>into the Rebol maling list void...
>Where do they go ?
Maybe they take a detour by the void mailing list
(http://void.slab.org/), and then never make it back?
HY
[3/8] from: SunandaDH::aol::com at: 17-Feb-2005 4:07
Jason:
> I am posting this again, as my first attempt vanished into the Rebol maling
> list void...
> Where do they go ?
The mailing list has been very flakey, but it did seem it was getting better.
Most messages that fail to make it get to the list server but are not sent to
all list subscribers. The reason is unknown. You can normally see those here:
http://mail.rebol.net/cgi-bin/mail-list.r
A few messages -- yours included as far as I can see -- don't even make it
that far.
It'd be worth dropping a feedback to rebol.com if you have the sender
details. It might help them spot the problem.
Sunanda.
[4/8] from: pwawood::mango::net::my at: 17-Feb-2005 17:44
Jason
> Thanks.. I see. I'd always thought and read about Rebol as being tiny
> and
> lightweight. Now I am really wondering.
Rebol has a tiny footprint in terms of the size of the executable.
> How much memory are we talking about?
Gabriele suggested in an earlier email that Rebol/Core takes about 2Mb
upon loading before any script memory needs. View will take more.
> How variable is Rebol's use of memory?
I think that the price for Rebol's ease of use, flexibility and
wide-ranging functionality is its memory usage.
> How does it compare to other PocketPC development tools?
The major difference must be that other PocketPC development tools
don't run on the PocketPC, they are complied on a bigger machine which
creates an executable (probably optimised to minimise memory usage).
Being an interpreted language you need most (if not all) of the
development functionality on the target machine.
SuperWaba (a sawn-off java lookalike for Palm & CE) compiles to
intermediate code (like Java). The Virtual Machine apparently takes
between 500 & 700k on the PDA and applications are measured in 100ks
not megabytes like Rebol.
I hope that somebody will tell me that I'm wrong but I suspect that
Rebol/View will only be really suitable for PDA development when PDAs
have much more memory than today.
Peter
[5/8] from: greggirwin::mindspring::com at: 17-Feb-2005 9:26
Memory Use
Base ~600K
Face ~700K
Core ~1.4M
View ~3M
Command/View ~3.8M
If your app uses VID, that seems to be the really expensive part, in
terms of memory.
-- Gregg
[6/8] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 27-Feb-2005 1:58
R: Rebol on PocketPC ?? >> re: IPAQ ++
> So there is now a booming PocketPC market already for so many cool
> little personal database and messaging applications.
I have already asked for Rebol on PocketPC but it seems there is no
money at Rebol Tech to concentrate on this market. I would see rebol on
WindowsCE.NET, Windows CE and Windows Mobile too. These are good markets but
Rebol Tech, as said, lacks of resources.
On a recent Blog post Carl seems to have analyzed this situation and
he is taking into consideration the creation of a middle level of Rebol code
that will be the only part that needs to be changed to let Rebol run on each
platform. This code will be open (under some kind of licence) and developers
with experience on a specific platform will take care of the porting.
I think it is the best approach. Otherwise I see no way to have
rebol running on so many systems and markets.
Giuseppe Chillemi
[7/8] from: atruter:labyrinth:au at: 28-Feb-2005 14:42
> ... Otherwise I see no way to have rebol running on so many systems and
> markets.
I'm sure RT would port to platform X if they were *paid* to do so. If you
believe you have the ultimate Windows CE (or whatever) app that could earn
a squillion dollars, then part with a few thousand dollars (or whatever
you negotiate with RT) and do it. ;)
Regards,
Ashley
[8/8] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 23-Feb-2005 14:30
> So there is now a booming PocketPC market already for so many cool little
> personal database and messaging applications.
I have already asked for Rebol on PPC but it seems there is no money
at Rebol Tech to concentrate on this market. I would see rebol on
WindowsCE.NET, Windows CE and Windows Mobile too. These are good markets but
Rebol Tech, as said, lacks of resources.
On a recent Blog post Carl seems to have analyzed this situation and
he is taking into consideration the creation of a middle level of Rebol code
that need to be changed to let Rebol run on each platform. This code will be
open (under some kind of licence) and developers with experience on a
specific platform will take care of the porting.
I think it is the best approach. Otherwise I see no way to have
rebol running on so many systems and markets.
Giuseppe Chillemi