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Rebol on PocketPC ?? >> re: IPAQ ++

 [1/8] from: jasonic:nomadics at: 17-Feb-2005 9:13


I am posting this again, as my first attempt vanished into the Rebol maling list void... Where do they go ?
> Rebol/View is not yet available for Windows/CE. > Far from having a small memory footprint, Rebol consumes large chunks of > memory. (That's why there isn't a Palm OS version).
Thanks.. I see. I'd always thought and read about Rebol as being tiny and lightweight. Now I am really wondering. How much memory are we talking about? How variable is Rebol's use of memory? How does it compare to other PocketPC development tools? I still find it hard to believe that Rebol cannot compete well with other development tools. More importantly that cool applications developed with Rebol cannot compete with others. Customers [aka commercial end-users] rarely care what language/SDK was used. They just want performance design features and price! So there is now a booming PocketPC market already for so many cool little personal database and messaging applications. Reminds me of HyperCard and then the ActiveX / COM market about 9 years ago. --- Gadget World --- Apple's new OSX10.4 'Tiger' http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/index.html is now touting something like that also with 'Dashboard' http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html Dashboard Gadgets [Widgets] are created using a mix of HTML, JavaScript, and CSS Dashboard seems at first glance to be a rip-off of Konfabulator http://www.konfabulator.com/ Some differences are discussed here http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator Both are the excellent examples of what Rebol/View applets should be, given a fertile environment [Quartz] and design attitude. --- REBOL/PocketPC ??? --- jc >> You have a real advantage / market opportunity here :-) chris > I think so too. PocketPCs could be the niche REBOL has been searching for a long time. Yes and as I read though the lists and reviews of the PocketPC commercial and freeware apps, they almost all sound like could/should/would be REBOL/View apps. The exceptions are the ones which play video or record sound. Both areas where REBOL has nothing to offer -- unless it uses Command to call some library. In fact that's what most PocketPC apps are doing - they seem to be nice little dedicated wrappers for .NET dlls for example 'HanDBase' is a cool database tool http://www.ddhsoftware.com/ check out their tutorials at http://www.ddhsoftware.com/TrainingVideos/HanDBase/ [flash] Sites which give a quick flavor of what PocketPC market might be for Rebol apps are PocketPC magazine http://www.pocketpcmag.com/_top/ PocketNow ["it's all about portability"] http://www.pocketnow.com/index.php PocketPCSoft NET [software and freeware] http://www.pocketpcsoft.net/ PocketGear http://www.pocketgear.com/index.asp DevvBuzz.com [Handheld development] http://www.devbuzz.com/content/ --- TabletPC --- Another platform where REBOL could do well is TabletPC. There is no REBOL porting time and no memory restrictions like Pocket PC devices. Some of the current TabletPC are fabulous, though still a little expensive. Nicest one I've seen so far is Electrovaya Scribbler 2010 Tablet PC http://www.geek.com/hwswrev/hardware/electrotab/ http://www.mobiletechreview.com/notebooks/electrovaya.htm Easy to see how these could be worth their weight in gold in the Medicine and elsewhere. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/tabletpc/default.mspx http://thetabletpc.net/ http://www.pencomputing.com/TabletPC/ --- Flash --- ....and yes Flash can now support all of the above now. MDM have just released 'Zinc' for PocketPC, as well finally their cross platform compiler for [desktop] Zinc applications [MacOSX, Windows] http://www.multidmedia.com/software/zinc/ The Zinc feature-set includes 600 script functions, freeing Flash from its very limited browser sandbox, and putting it much closer Rebol http://www.multidmedia.com/software/zinc/#03 http://www.multidmedia.com/software/zinc/pocketpc/ Meanwhile Macromedia have just signed a deal with Nokia for 'FlashLite'. They are showing off this week at 3GSM http://macromedia.com/devnet/devices/?promoid=home_dev_3gsm_021405 At first glance FlashLite sounds great, until one learns that it is really just Flash 4 [c.1999 or early 2000] ! It works but the old programming syntax sucks so this is a horrible step back for programmers now used to FlashMX and Actionscript 2.0 Fyi, the 'standard' Flash player now running almost everywhere on the web is version 7. What this all says to me is that when it comes to _GUI development environments_, the memory footprint and graphics performance on phones and some handhelds is still lagging years nearly 5 behind the available tool kits. The Sharp Zaurus runs Linux and is a rare exception, but costs $1000. http://www.sharpusa.com/products/TypeLanding/0,1056,116,00.html PocketPC land Microsfots other Mobile versions strongly leverage .NET in slightly modified form . http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/pocketpc/default.mspx Can anyone tell me how/if Rebol/View/Command could leverage this easily or not? thanks, Jason

 [2/8] from: hallvard::ystad::oops-as::no at: 17-Feb-2005 9:40


Dixit "Jason Cunliffe" <[jasonic--nomadics--org]> (Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:13:21 +0100):
>I am posting this again, as my first attempt vanished >into the Rebol maling list void... >Where do they go ?
Maybe they take a detour by the void mailing list (http://void.slab.org/), and then never make it back? HY

 [3/8] from: SunandaDH::aol::com at: 17-Feb-2005 4:07


Jason:
> I am posting this again, as my first attempt vanished into the Rebol maling > list void... > Where do they go ?
The mailing list has been very flakey, but it did seem it was getting better. Most messages that fail to make it get to the list server but are not sent to all list subscribers. The reason is unknown. You can normally see those here: http://mail.rebol.net/cgi-bin/mail-list.r A few messages -- yours included as far as I can see -- don't even make it that far. It'd be worth dropping a feedback to rebol.com if you have the sender details. It might help them spot the problem. Sunanda.

 [4/8] from: pwawood::mango::net::my at: 17-Feb-2005 17:44


Jason
> Thanks.. I see. I'd always thought and read about Rebol as being tiny > and > lightweight. Now I am really wondering.
Rebol has a tiny footprint in terms of the size of the executable.
> How much memory are we talking about?
Gabriele suggested in an earlier email that Rebol/Core takes about 2Mb upon loading before any script memory needs. View will take more.
> How variable is Rebol's use of memory?
I think that the price for Rebol's ease of use, flexibility and wide-ranging functionality is its memory usage.
> How does it compare to other PocketPC development tools?
The major difference must be that other PocketPC development tools don't run on the PocketPC, they are complied on a bigger machine which creates an executable (probably optimised to minimise memory usage). Being an interpreted language you need most (if not all) of the development functionality on the target machine. SuperWaba (a sawn-off java lookalike for Palm & CE) compiles to intermediate code (like Java). The Virtual Machine apparently takes between 500 & 700k on the PDA and applications are measured in 100ks not megabytes like Rebol. I hope that somebody will tell me that I'm wrong but I suspect that Rebol/View will only be really suitable for PDA development when PDAs have much more memory than today. Peter

 [5/8] from: greggirwin::mindspring::com at: 17-Feb-2005 9:26

Memory Use


Base ~600K Face ~700K Core ~1.4M View ~3M Command/View ~3.8M If your app uses VID, that seems to be the really expensive part, in terms of memory. -- Gregg

 [6/8] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 27-Feb-2005 1:58

R: Rebol on PocketPC ?? >> re: IPAQ ++


> So there is now a booming PocketPC market already for so many cool > little personal database and messaging applications.
I have already asked for Rebol on PocketPC but it seems there is no money at Rebol Tech to concentrate on this market. I would see rebol on WindowsCE.NET, Windows CE and Windows Mobile too. These are good markets but Rebol Tech, as said, lacks of resources. On a recent Blog post Carl seems to have analyzed this situation and he is taking into consideration the creation of a middle level of Rebol code that will be the only part that needs to be changed to let Rebol run on each platform. This code will be open (under some kind of licence) and developers with experience on a specific platform will take care of the porting. I think it is the best approach. Otherwise I see no way to have rebol running on so many systems and markets. Giuseppe Chillemi

 [7/8] from: atruter:labyrinth:au at: 28-Feb-2005 14:42


> ... Otherwise I see no way to have rebol running on so many systems and > markets.
I'm sure RT would port to platform X if they were *paid* to do so. If you believe you have the ultimate Windows CE (or whatever) app that could earn a squillion dollars, then part with a few thousand dollars (or whatever you negotiate with RT) and do it. ;) Regards, Ashley

 [8/8] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 23-Feb-2005 14:30


> So there is now a booming PocketPC market already for so many cool little > personal database and messaging applications.
I have already asked for Rebol on PPC but it seems there is no money at Rebol Tech to concentrate on this market. I would see rebol on WindowsCE.NET, Windows CE and Windows Mobile too. These are good markets but Rebol Tech, as said, lacks of resources. On a recent Blog post Carl seems to have analyzed this situation and he is taking into consideration the creation of a middle level of Rebol code that need to be changed to let Rebol run on each platform. This code will be open (under some kind of licence) and developers with experience on a specific platform will take care of the porting. I think it is the best approach. Otherwise I see no way to have rebol running on so many systems and markets. Giuseppe Chillemi