Mailing List Archive: 49091 messages
  • Home
  • Script library
  • AltME Archive
  • Mailing list
  • Articles Index
  • Site search
 

Opening a new blog about Rebol?

 [1/42] from: ale870::gmail::com at: 7-Nov-2007 17:42


Hello, I need a suggestion / opinion by you. Currently I have a blog (in italian language) to publish some Rebol news, but more focused on tutorials, tips & tricks, How-to, etc... I think it is interesting. For example I'm using our discusssion to extract useful information and publish them in the blog, like the trick about code optimization. In this way all italian people can gain more knowledge about this beautiful language. It is not very "famous" in Italy :-( I wanted to open a similar blog in english language, by simply translating my articles from italian to english. But since there are several other blogs in english, I don't know if it could be a good idea or not. I wish your opinion. More: do you think that a blog in english language containing tutorial is ok, or for rebol could be better using other tools (wikipedia, true internet site, forum, etc...). I haven't much time, but in order to fill articles in my italian blog ( http://sguish.wordpress.com) I publish solutions, hints, etc... that I find in my real life, or solutions to some problems that other poeple ask. So I use it like a block note, to put solutions found to some specific problems (and sometimes I create full tutorials). Can I have your opinion? Do you think another site could be useful or not for Rebol? Thank you. -- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [2/42] from: gregg:pointillistic at: 7-Nov-2007 9:51


Hi Alessandro, I don't know if another site is needed, just provide an English version you can get to from the Italian one. -- Gregg

 [3/42] from: ale870::gmail::com at: 7-Nov-2007 23:22


For the first time, that one was my starting point. I wanted to create a blog just to publish news & co, then using a real wiki system (with users/volunteers contribution) in order to collect real-world solutions, solutions to help people to realize programmers to realize real-world applications. Furthermore, I wish to collect some tutorials, tips & tricks, etc... in one single place. In fact, in internet I can find many things about Rebol, but I need to jump here and there to find the solution to a specific problem. Furthermore, it could be a good starting point for user's projects (after SourceFOrge, we could make RebolForge... ;-) It really needs something like that !!) On Nov 7, 2007 5:51 PM, Gregg Irwin <gregg-pointillistic.com> wrote:
> Hi Alessandro, > I don't know if another site is needed, just provide an English
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [4/42] from: moliad::gmail at: 8-Nov-2007 9:56


Alessandro, there is already rebol.org which provides a lot of services I am sure sunanda would already have added anything, if demand where high . but since there is sourceforge, we can use that actually, for the development coordination. sourceforge is neutral a part from the tool license having to be OSL certified. But I say this, and I already have some stuff done for revault which is a library module specific site for rebol. I already have many pages done (including a submission page), and the site visuals are beautifull (I think at least). but recent events in my life are keeping me from putting time on hobby stuff, so ALL my projects are on hold for a month or two still. if you want to help out with revault when I start work on it again, I'd be happy for an extra set of hands. I already have at least one or two volunteers for managing the sites' submissions. -MAx On Nov 7, 2007 5:22 PM, Alessandro Manotti <ale870-gmail.com> wrote:

 [5/42] from: fergus4::bellatlantic::net at: 8-Nov-2007 14:02


Any new info/help on rebol is appreciated. I'd say if you can to provide a translation to English.. Alan Macleod

 [6/42] from: beelboing:y:ahoo at: 8-Nov-2007 19:00


I agree, I think this would be a very good idea. I enjoy reading blogs like these. I am trying to learn REBOL, so the more information in English, the better. It would be interesting to maybe see a Planet REBOL web site one day. A compilation of many different REBOL bloggers. I am a Common Lisp fan and I read http://planet.lisp.org everyday, to give you an example. Just an idea. Paul J. Beel --- Alan <fergus4-bellatlantic.net> wrote:

 [7/42] from: ale870::gmail at: 9-Nov-2007 8:27


Thank you for your feedback! Do you think it could be better making a blog or a wiki? On Nov 9, 2007 4:00 AM, Paul Beel <beelboing-yahoo.com> wrote:
> I agree, I think this would be a very good idea. I > enjoy reading blogs like these. I am trying to learn
<<quoted lines omitted: 92>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [8/42] from: ale870::gmail::com at: 9-Nov-2007 8:30


A blog is better for daily-basis, like a newspaper, but the problem is when a blog contains a lot of tutorials, tips & tricks, etc... it could be difficult to find the needed information. On Nov 9, 2007 8:27 AM, Alessandro Manotti <ale870-gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you for your feedback! > Do you think it could be better making a blog or a wiki?
<<quoted lines omitted: 112>>
> http://sguish.wordpress.com > http://laccio.wordpress.com
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [9/42] from: henrik:webz:dk at: 10-Nov-2007 12:49


On 07/11/2007, at 17.42, Alessandro Manotti wrote:
> Hello, > I need a suggestion / opinion by you.
<<quoted lines omitted: 29>>
> or not > for Rebol?
I think it's a great idea. I have a REBOL blog myself at http:// www.hmkdesign.dk/rebol/ but would like to see more "life" in the blog area. A blog shows personal interest in the language and I started mine to inform more people about the language and to give tricks and tips on things that took me a long time to figure out. I don't think there can be too many REBOL blogs. :-) If we link to eachother, we can also help eachother. I would be happy to do that. -- Regards, Henrik Mikael Kristensen

 [10/42] from: ale870::gmail::com at: 10-Nov-2007 15:52


Yes Henrik, I agree with you. Some popular languages have A LOT OF sites dedicated, but everyday many others are created. I think the only problem regarding Rebol popularity is: 1) it is not open source 2) Rebol Technologis (the company) does not make enough publicity, and does not support the people that try to spread the Rebol-word. I asked to a friend of mine to try to use (learn) rebol. She told me (she is a very good programmer) that she does not want to use rebol because... 1) on server-side there are MANY programming languages, and they are all free (and open source), like PHP, Pyhton, Perl, Java, ASP, c#, visual basic#, ruby, etc... So... why paying to use Rebol (since in server side, for example, DB is a must, and one cannot use DB (odbc, oracle, etc,...) if one does not buy command version. 2) client side: it could be great, but GUI is not yet at highest level (it is not the "best of breed"). I think rebol really needs a lot publicity since it is really a great language, but I think Rebol Technologies should have to "help" the people (aka "promote rebol") to use it, with a license that best fits the current market, considerring that their competitors are Python, PHP, M$, Ruby, Java & JavaFX, etc... However, I already saw your blog in the past weeks, and it seems very interesting. Now that I know who are you, I will put a link in my italian blog to your blog. If we link to eachother, we can also help eachother. I would be happy to do that. Great! I'm always available to any kind of collaboration! On Nov 10, 2007 12:49 PM, Henrik Mikael Kristensen <henrik-webz.dk> wrote:
> On 07/11/2007, at 17.42, Alessandro Manotti wrote: > > Hello,
<<quoted lines omitted: 48>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [11/42] from: dhsunanda:gm:ail at: 10-Nov-2007 19:19


Alessandro:
> For the first time, that one was my starting point. > I wanted to create a blog just to publish news & co, then using a real wiki > system (with users/volunteers contribution) in order to collect real-world > solutions, solutions to help people to realize programmers to realize > real-world applications. Furthermore, I wish to collect some tutorials, tips > & tricks, etc... in one single place.
I think it is a great idea to publish additional tutorials on REBOL. Please do so!! As Max suggests in a previous reply, REBOL.org could be a place to do this. It is not a blog, but it does provide an Articles Library: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/art-index.r Articles have these following qualities: * can be written in most REBOLish mark-up languages (make-doc, nicomdoc, etext, mulch) * can have any number of tags to categorize them in the index menu * can be tagged so *any* Library member can update them ....see [wiki:public] tag: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/boiler.r?display=art-faq Why not give it a go!? Sunanda

 [12/42] from: anton::wilddsl::net::au at: 12-Nov-2007 13:22


Alessandro, I think it is a good idea to use rebol.org, too. It is a lot of work to maintain a website, so why duplicate the effort ? Probably you can tag articles and scripts with "language: Italian" and your website can simply link to the rebol.org pages which are italiano. Anton. Sunanda wrote:

 [13/42] from: ale870:g:mail at: 12-Nov-2007 21:40


ok, thank you for your precious suggestions! On Nov 12, 2007 3:22 AM, Anton Rolls <anton-wilddsl.net.au> wrote:
> Alessandro, > I think it is a good idea to use rebol.org, too.
<<quoted lines omitted: 43>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [14/42] from: moliad::gmail::com at: 12-Nov-2007 16:47


also, don't forget "the REBOL week" site! its read, liked and linked by Carl on official REBOL sites. it a great first step for getting news about REBOL... when people are out there making it. :-) if its editors get ticks about news going on wrt rebol, they will usually be more enclined to actually build a new issue of it. For my part, I should restart editing during the new year, but I remember that sometimes, feeding news seemed like scraping for articles. give your input about new blog articles on the altme world reserved for this, or post your stuff here will obvious titles. and the great initative led by graham can continue to show how REBOL really is alive. (now back to work! ;-) -MAx On Nov 12, 2007 3:40 PM, Alessandro Manotti <ale870-gmail.com> wrote:

 [15/42] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 16-Nov-2007 8:35


Hello Alessandro, I would like to have few comments to your remarks: Alessandro Manotti napsal(a):
> Yes Henrik, I agree with you. > Some popular languages have A LOT OF sites dedicated, but everyday many > others are created. > I think the only problem regarding Rebol popularity is: > 1) it is not open source >
Open source holy grail. Well, that is old topic, and we came thru various phases. My current conclusion is, that open sourcing whole REBOL would NOT automatically mean any rise in its popularity. I think that each new thing has its momentum. And REBOL momentum is gone. It was one somewhere in 2001 - 2003. Orca, REBOL clone is good example - it is open sourced, it is Core clone, yet it did not gain any special attraction. But - some ppl preach to open-source as a holy grail. I have one friend, who uses REBOL but constantly blames it for not being open sourced. He uses also Python. So I asked him, if he EVER even looked into Python sources. The answer was what I expected - even if some problem would arise, he would NOT be able to fix it himself, having sources or not. That is some false feeling of "security". But I understand where it does come from. When RT turned into IOS (solution) company, we waited for some fixes for years to come, and noone but RT could fix them. The situation with R3 is going to be completly different, and that is what we should start to market about REBOL, as R3 is close, and R2 is nearly a history ....
> 2) Rebol Technologis (the company) does not make enough publicity, and does > not support the people that try to spread the Rebol-word. >
Yes, that was true. Sometimes we could not hear or "push" them to do some action for months. But - RT is open to ideas nowadays. You remember the material, where they are looking for a marketing guy, full time job? Remember - that person must know, who "pekr" is :-) Currently there is a "secret" group on AltME channel, whose purpose is to redefine websites. We had nearly one week of chats, to define strategy, where does REBOL want to go, etc. Slow process, but we will get there. And Carl is there of course, and marketing is one of his main tasks for overall R3 release. So don't worry, this time, we will try to make it better than with R2. We also agreed on (amongst many other things) one point - let's not hype R3 features, unless we can deliver describe product capabilities "as-is". OTOH there is a community. This thread is called "Opening a new blog", and I say - go for it, absolutly! There are already some guys doing good public work. First guys responsible for rebol.org - it is not easily visible, but many features there. Then Brian Tiffin encouraging everybody to rock! :-) And finally Henrik - reading his blog you feel much better about things coming. Of course I would not like to forget about collective effort of rebolweek ... So - go for your blog.
> I asked to a friend of mine to try to use (learn) rebol. She told me (she is > a very good programmer) that she does not want to use rebol because...
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> for example, DB is a must, and one cannot use DB (odbc, oracle, etc,...) if > one does not buy command version.
Well, I am not here to argue, but she surely would put JAVA on that list even one year ago, even when JAVA was not open source. C# is counterpart for .NET, private technology. Those who seek solutions, would find one - odbc socket server, which enables core to talk to any ODBC database. But I get her point, no need to explain it further. I just would wait, and tried to talk to her later, maybe showing her elegant few liner rebol code solution, with free R3 database access :-)
> 2) client side: it could be great, but GUI is not yet at highest level (it > is not the "best of breed"). >
It is not, but it will be. View will rock! I can guarantee you, that apart from Flash/Flex and maybe Silverlight a bit, NONE of other languages has anything close to View. Most of them link to external toolkits - SDL, Qt, Tk, GTK+, etc. The thing is, even REBOL could integrate to those, the work just was not done. But once again - we will concentrate upon our advantage - View and its browser plug-in. You should know, that one of three Ruby's main bounties few years ago was REBOL/View clone ... guys tried it, but were disappointed because of its "speed" :-) Besides that, RebGUI is pretty much decent toolkit, much better than what VID2 provides us with recently. Besides that - all of those above toolkits push their old sh*tty aproach on you - objects, objects, etc., down to user level. But - VID user is not supposed to be a good programmer. So - I hope that with VID3 we continue being mostly declarative in user level. JAVA guys were also fed-up with all that stuff, so they brought us JavaFX, and one must laugh, how it is similar to VID definition - so - so much for cool overobjected methods of nowadays.
> I think rebol really needs a lot publicity since it is really a great > language, but I think Rebol Technologies should have to "help" the people > (aka "promote rebol") to use it, with a license that best fits the current > market, considerring that their competitors are Python, PHP, M$, Ruby, Java > & JavaFX, etc... >
I should now explain strategy a bit. We have two targets here: - current world, full of other technologies. It will be a tough call, to get into the group of python, ruby, php, perl league. But there are some guys interested in further linkage of REBOL to .NET etc technologies. It will be long way to go, but infrastructure of R3 should allow this (plug-ins) - more important target is to concentrate upon what REBOL is good etc - distributes lightweight computing, using rebol services. Along with Flash/Flex there might not be other lightweight technology to fill the market. And once ppl see few nice demos in browser plug-in, see their nice declarative (readable) source code, those might come. There is always new generation, which looks for their first language, and we might attract them. We will probably not easily win you friend programmer, as you can't teach old do new things easily. Such ppl will always compare it to aproach they are used to ... Alessandro - just sit, blog, and watch the show :-) Cheers, -pekr-

 [16/42] from: ale870:gma:il at: 17-Nov-2007 18:25


Hello Petr, first of all: thank you for your exhaustive answer. Just a question (since I'm not involved in R3 testing or development, and I cannot follow AltMe discussions, so...) are you a developer, or a Rebol Technologies responsible? I ask this because it seems you talk like a Rebol Tech company member (this is not an abuse, but just an information that I wished to get). But - some ppl preach to open-source as a holy grail. I have one friend,
> who uses REBOL but constantly blames it for not being open sourced. He > uses also Python. So I asked him, if he EVER even looked into Python > sources. The answer was what I expected - even if some problem would > arise, he would NOT be able to fix it himself, having sources or not. > That is some false feeling of "security". >
This is a common "mistake" that several people do. I fully agree with you. In fact, even if I made my first application when I was 12, and now I'm 37, and I know more than 15 programming languages, I never imagine to use open source apps to modify their source code (I haven't enough free time nor enough resources... aka people involved). But when I decide to use an open source app, I know that, probably, a big community will grow around that piece of software, and even if a company would terminate its development, or some people go in the "wrong way" (from my point of view) I know that I will not remain completely tied! In my job, for the company where I work, we use ex-Borland Delphi (now CodeGear), I use M$ products, I use ex-Macromedia products (now Adobe). In every case, I had to follow economical decisions taken from the big companies and not "right" decisions for the software self (I'm sorry for my bad english, maybe some concepts are not quite clear). I think Rebol company sometimes forgets that, even if they created a great product, thay have to "fight" in the market, against Java, python, perl, ruby, php, etc... Some of them are free, other ones are even open source. Rebol could be a killer application if new VID (in R3) will be really powerful. Java on server-side is great (my opinion), even to create BIG applications. Instead Java and JavaFx have serious problems in client-side (due to the big size of the runtime, the big amount of memory used, the big delay during startup, etc...). On the contrary of other clients (flash, java on the web, etc...) rebol can directly access to local resources (very important if I use it in my company to realize internal company applications, for all the europe). Furthermore, for the people like me that follow rebol, there is lack of information about R3 development (I stopped to develop Laccio because I don't know anything about new R3, I don't continue to make tutorials on VID R2 because I don't know anything about R3 VID, etc....). I think other people are in the same situation. More: since Rebol is not a free product, some people could think: why I need to spend time to create apps and resources for free if rebol self is not free? Why should I have to help Rebol? Just to let them gain more money?! Believe me, some people think that. I think Rebol must be closed in order to avoid forks, but you need to find a good license to involve the people to try and use it. (example: free for non-commercial use, like many other products do!). Alessandro - just sit, blog, and watch the show :-)
I watching the show.... but I still see a lot of fog! And I cannot see clearly a lot of things! So, please, try to help me (and other people like me) to eliminate the fog and better see the show!!! :-) :-) :-) Thank you Petr! On Nov 16, 2007 8:35 AM, Petr Krenzelok <petr.krenzelok-seznam.cz> wrote:
> Hello Alessandro, > I would like to have few comments to your remarks:
<<quoted lines omitted: 196>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [17/42] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 18-Nov-2007 22:55


Alessandro Manotti napsal(a):
> Hello Petr, > first of all: thank you for your exhaustive answer. Just a question (since > I'm not involved in R3 testing or development, and I cannot follow AltMe > discussions, so...) are you a developer, or a Rebol Technologies > responsible? I ask this because it seems you talk like a Rebol Tech company > member (this is not an abuse, but just an information that I wished to get). >
Well, from som pov I may be regarded as an REBOL representative :-) But - the truth is I have nothing in common with RT. It is just I am here from the very beginning - as an Amigan, writing main columns for Amiga Review for something like 4 years, I started to notice Carl during his Viscorp times. Carl then left Viscorp and announced his REBOL project. Since that time I am here :-) So, basically I know history of REBOL from many angles, being it RT (public image), community, etc. It also seems to me, that if REBOL user group takes off, I might become community representative. I am known being rather vocal, sometimes probably controversial, but even during more difficult times of REBOL's history, many ppl did agree with my opinions. But once again - no relation to RT on my side ...
> But - some ppl preach to open-source as a holy grail. I have one friend, >> who uses REBOL but constantly blames it for not being open sourced. He
<<quoted lines omitted: 13>>
> some people go in the "wrong way" (from my point of view) I know that I will > not remain completely tied!
That is interesting. There is REBOL/Core clone called Orca, yet noone develops it further. The problem of REBOL's success is several folds and is more deep. We IMO missed so called "momentum", an oportunity window. Now it will be more difficult to make REBOL popular. In fact I think that open-sourcing REBOL nowadays would have nearly zero meaning. We can't easily create many wrappers to external systems available for languages like php, python, ruby, perl. Not with so small commnuity. I think that we should take two aproaches: 1) let's make sure REBOL is extensible and has flexible architecture - I think that R3 fullfills this part easily. DevBase is up and running and it even contains first C level code. The only closed part of R3 is going to be rebol.dll, which is platform independent, so in theory RT can port it to new platforms in few days imo 2) I think that we should concentrate upon what we are good at. Small, lightweight, distributed application. I hope we will provide even R3 browser plug-in version. I think that REBOL could be third to the game - Flash/Flex, Silverlight, REBOL. REBOL IOS is still unmatched by many other technologies.
> I think Rebol company sometimes forgets that, even if they created a great > product, thay have to "fight" in the market, against Java, python, perl, > ruby, php, etc... Some of them are free, other ones are even open source. >
I think RT is aware of that fact, and if you read carefully between the lines of various blog posts, you might notice RT is not depreciating website and overal marketing strategy ....
> Rebol could be a killer application if new VID (in R3) will be really > powerful. >
It will be powerfull. Declarative UI is the way to follow. I am fed-up with all that crappy object oriented environments, done just for programmers, with no real advantage. Now even Java got JavaFX. VID3 will be hopefully good enough for general application UIs.
> Java on server-side is great (my opinion), even to create BIG applications. > Instead Java and JavaFx have serious problems in client-side (due to the big
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>
> R2 because I don't know anything about R3 VID, etc....). I think other > people are in the same situation.
Yes, temporarily, till R3 release. I know that feeling when you stop your development, because you feel the new thingy hits the market next day. Release of DevBase and current enhancements to DevBase are preparation for more wide public release. Dunno how long will it take. I will just put MY OWN estimate here - alpha release might be out befor the end of the year, and I think beta could be out in 2Q/2008. Hopefully sooner, it depends upon more factors ...
> More: since Rebol is not a free product, some people could think: why I need > to spend time to create apps and resources for free if rebol self is not > free? Why should I have to help Rebol? Just to let them gain more money?! > Believe me, some people think that. >
REBOL is free, it is not open sourced. That ppl need to check their sanity then. Are Flash IDE tools free? Is Flash open-sourced? Is .NET open sourced? Product popularity is not equal to its open source nature. We should name problems with the right names. I think the problem is - ppl don't feel safe about REBOL. One of main problems I attribute to RT's public "communication" skills. We have to find the way of how to improve it. Carl knows there is some space for improvement.
> I think Rebol must be closed in order to avoid forks, but you need to find a > good license to involve the people to try and use it. (example: free for > non-commercial use, like many other products do!). >
License - we will see - many things will be free, SDK might be paid. Many things will be even open-sourced. Completly different model from R2 ....
> Alessandro - just sit, blog, and watch the show :-) > > I watching the show.... but I still see a lot of fog! And I cannot see > clearly a lot of things! So, please, try to help me (and other people like > me) to eliminate the fog and better see the show!!! :-) :-) :-) >
When sun rises, fog clears out :-) Cheers, -pekr-

 [18/42] from: edoconnor:g:mail at: 18-Nov-2007 18:51


>> REBOL is free, it is not open sourced. That ppl need to check their
sanity then. Are Flash IDE tools free? Is Flash open-sourced? Is .NET open sourced? Product popularity is not equal to its open source nature. Popular languages are in their own category. It does not matter that these tools are not open source. Their lack of open source is more than compensated by many other benefits of popularity, e.g., ubiquity, strong community, books/documentation, RAD/IDE's and 3rd-party tools, etc. Unknown/unpopular languages are held to a different standard. The unknowns need to consider all ways of promoting adoption-- which may or may not include open sourcing the language. It's either grow to critical mass or languish in obscurity.
>> We should name problems with the right names. I think the
problem is - ppl don't feel safe about REBOL. Yes, I think you've nailed it here. The "unsafe" perception is due to any number of reasons, rational or irrational. And of course lack of popularity is self-reinforcing. Ed

 [19/42] from: sqlab:gmx at: 19-Nov-2007 8:21


If I use e.g. a C-compiler or a IDE, that is not open source, I know at least, that there are alternatives, if it does match my expectations. Ed O'Connor wrote:

 [20/42] from: sqlab:gmx at: 19-Nov-2007 8:29


Hello Petr, maybe your friend did not encounter a bug that stopped him. I used open source tools too -not always free, but I enhanced or at least adapted them to my needs, if I could not go further without . Petr Krenzelok wrote:

 [21/42] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 19-Nov-2007 9:27


sqlab napsal(a):
> If I use e.g. a C-compiler or a IDE, that is not open source, I know at > least, that there are alternatives, if it does match my expectations. >
And I think you are not even thinking about it. What you want is to Code in C, and you try to find tool which fits you. Can't believe you aproach it from that perspective, a priori expecting some tool will fail to meet your expectations in the long term. New ppl would not be buying Amigas. They were buying it because of its advantages. And Amiga as a company (Commodore) was doing some bad marketing decision. The problem why ppl feel about the way they will is imo otherwise: - ppl don't feel safe. - such feeling comes from the REBOL non- marketing. Mostly static, poorly updated webpage, no mention in magazines, blogs, newsites - no existing wrappers to many known databases and libraries - REBOL asks for money, where others are free of charge - although passionate, - small community Those are some of the problems I think we are facing. And most could be adressed with R3 architecture. It will be a tough call though. Now answer to yourself. If REBOL would be open-sourced, what way would it influence your decision to user or not to use REBOL in? And if open source is total solution for you, why don't you take Orca, open source Core clone? I don't want this discussion to get into arguing over open source or not nature :-) I think that there is some plan on how to improve situation, and I would like we concentrate on it. Naming past mistakes is OK with me, if we can learn from them. And I believe RT is on right track this time. It is just that recover REBOL's public image will not be easy task ... Petr

 [22/42] from: sqlab:gmx at: 19-Nov-2007 10:31


Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> sqlab napsal(a): >> If I use e.g. a C-compiler or a IDE, that is not open source, I know at
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
>> > And I think you are not even thinking about it.
not, when I was young.
> What you want is to Code > in C, and you try to find tool which fits you.
I programmed with UCSD-p may years ago and I had the whole source at hand.
> Can't believe you aproach > it from that perspective, a priori expecting some tool will fail to meet > your expectations in the long term. New ppl would not be buying Amigas. >
I never used an Amiga, but an Atari ST at that time. This was a tool for me, I saw the Amiga always as a toy.
> They were buying it because of its advantages. And Amiga as a company > (Commodore) was doing some bad marketing decision. The problem why ppl > feel about the way they will is imo otherwise: > > - ppl don't feel safe. > - such feeling comes from the REBOL non- marketing. Mostly static, > poorly updated webpage, no mention in magazines, blogs, newsites >
I did not come to rebol because of some marketing, but because I needed a tool for a special purpose at that time and I had evaluated some alternatives.
> - no existing wrappers to many known databases and libraries >
I wrote my own wrappers or connections to at least two databases.
> - REBOL asks for money, where others are free of charge >
I bought pros and at least two SDKs.
> - although passionate, - small community >
I worked a long time with non mainstream tools. And I got bitten when the manufacurer went out of business.
> Those are some of the problems I think we are facing. And most could be > adressed with R3 architecture. It will be a tough call though. Now > answer to yourself. If REBOL would be open-sourced, what way would it > influence your decision to user or not to use REBOL in? And if open > source is total solution for you, why don't you take Orca, open source > Core clone? >
I looked at Orca. Unfortunately it did not compile as anounced. Maybe I was too discouraged by my first impression.
> I don't want this discussion to get into arguing over open source or not > nature :-) I think that there is some plan on how to improve situation, > and I would like we concentrate on it. Naming past mistakes is OK with > me, if we can learn from them. And I believe RT is on right track this > time. It is just that recover REBOL's public image will not be easy task ... > > Petr >
I am not sure. There were many promises from RT in the past already. And you know what happened... again and again.. If they do not keep them now, Rebol will be just an inhouse project/tool for maybe QTask. AR

 [23/42] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 19-Nov-2007 10:46


> I am not sure. There were many promises from RT in the past already. And > you know what happened... again and again.. > If they do not keep them now, Rebol will be just an inhouse project/tool > for maybe QTask. >
Interesting. I would nearly consider such opinion as total ignorance of facts. Yes, RT might be slow at development, but look at Python ... what was new in 2.5 version? What is going to be in 3.0 version? I regard it being "cosmetic" upgrade in comparison to R3. Well, Python does not need to change its architecture, because they have many things we lack. But - R3 is total redesign. There is so many changes, that it is completly new REBOL. What makes you think, that RT is doing all that design work to be used for Qtask only? Well, in the past, we had no blogs. Nowadays, Carl blogging or not, ppl are still disappointed. I would like to identify the reason why. Maybe it is because development is mostly a closed effort? Well, that could be it, ppl might feel excluded from information. Carl knows it and imo that is why DevBase is currently in heavy development - to allow full community release of R3, even in alpha version. So, instead of stating "again and again", could you suggest us, what could be done to improve situation? Apart from Carl's blog, there is Henrik blogging too, there is rebolweek, we try to inform REBOL friend around with the status. Well, what I suggested was - let's set milestones, release as-is, feature freezing. I think that it is our nature to accept even limited capabilities, than to wait undefined amout of time for new thingy to appear. My belief is, that once DevBase is solid (and there is already tens of small enhancements/fixes done and other in the pipeline, R3 will be released. Once again, I don't speak for RT, it is just my observation ... Petr

 [24/42] from: sqlab:gmx at: 19-Nov-2007 11:20


It seems you got from Saulus to Paulus again. Petr Krenzelok wrote:
>> I am not sure. There were many promises from RT in the past already. And >> you know what happened... again and again..
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> REBOL. What makes you think, that RT is doing all that design work to be > used for Qtask only?
In R2 were some features long time arcane to the normal user, probably only done for some special contracts.
> Well, in the past, we had no blogs. Nowadays, Carl > blogging or not, ppl are still disappointed. I would like to identify
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> So, instead of stating "again and again", could you suggest us, what > could be done to improve situation?
To release as soon and as often as possibly not only (tid??) bits from the kitchen, but the recipe. I remember reams of speculation about the inner working of R2 in the early times, as there was no white paper and only one closed implementation. Where are these user now? I do not know if the development of R# or Orca got discouraged by RT, but maybe competitive implementations according the same spec would have helped Rebol more.

 [25/42] from: ale870::gmail at: 19-Nov-2007 11:23


Hello, I have to two points to be highlighted. [1] Amiga... well I love that computer! And I hate Commodore which was the main actor for Amiga failure in the market. I think, generally speaking, it a good concept to compare Rebol to other technologies, which failed in the time. Think to BeOS (great OS, I bought original version and upgrade, I studied it, and now... Palm and Be Inc. destroyed my job.. I have nothing in my hands :-( ) , OS/2 (same...), Commodore Amiga (sigh...), etc... I hope RT will not append Rebol to this list... [2] Interesting. I would nearly consider such opinion as total ignorance of
> facts. Yes, RT might be slow at development, but look at Python ... what > was new in 2.5 version? What is going to be in 3.0 version? >
Hello Petr, basically, you agree. So now, let's try to analyze why Python is used by Google, and why Guido Van Rossum (Python creator) now works in Google... and not Rebol. Let's analyze why Python scripts are heavily used in Linux distributions for configurations, etc.... and not Rebol. Let's analyze why the world, now, always talk about Ruby and not Rebol. Let's analyze why I opened a blog in italian language (and now I created a full featured tool containing blog, web site, forum, wiki), but nobody comments my articles, nobody send me an email, and why I received about 2500 visits in almost 5 months... It seems almost no italian people takes care about Rebol, but everybody know Ruby, Python, PHP, etc... I'm afraid for Rebol: I really like Rebol, and I'm spending time to promote it. Some times ago I wrote to Carl directly, after a brief contact taken with another his developer, and I tried to propose a collaboration with RT just to spread the word of Rebol. Since I really like Rebol, I wanted to try to become an Italian official representative (and maybe European), with trainings, official presentations, taking care to get contacts with some companies, etc... For me it would be a jump in the dark, but it could be a good "escape" from my normal job, and it could be a starting point to open a new Rebol office in Italy (and Europe). That one, even if for me was a risk, it could became a concrete advantage either for RT (official office in Europe) and for me (in the past I already got a company for 4 years). Result: Carl did not answer me, at all (until now). So in my mind there was only a concept, a thinking: "Carl does not care about Rebol publicity" (even if it could answer me a simple "no, thanks..."). But ok... this is the way the "father" of Rebol help its child (Rebol). On Nov 19, 2007 10:46 AM, Petr Krenzelok <petr.krenzelok-seznam.cz> wrote:
> > I am not sure. There were many promises from RT in the past already. And > > you know what happened... again and again..
<<quoted lines omitted: 32>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [26/42] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 19-Nov-2007 11:58


sqlab napsal(a):
> It seems you got from Saulus to Paulus again. >
Don't understand, but never mind, I should improve my english :-)
> To release as soon and as often as possibly not only (tid??) bits from > the kitchen, but the recipe. > I remember reams of speculation about the inner working of R2 in the > early times, as there was no white paper and only one closed > implementation. Where are these user now? >
I don't care for R2 anymore, that is the history. You release as soon as possible suggestion is something I agree totally with. With DevBase, there will be "constant" release, every improvement will be posted there. The only thing closed will be rebol.dll. I hope that will help ....
> I do not know if the development of R# or Orca got discouraged by RT, > but maybe competitive implementations according the same spec would > have helped Rebol more. >
Yes, they were probably disouraged by RT and it was not good move, because RT was not able to fullfill their promisses. However, - we can't win that argument back anymore. I suggest to concentrate upon what is about to come :-) Look, I am last guy who would like to hype things. But R3 is coming, initial estimates were wrong, but after release things might start changing. However - it will not be easy path to follow. Petr

 [27/42] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 19-Nov-2007 12:07


> Hello Petr, basically, you agree. So now, let's try to analyze why Python is > used by Google, and why Guido Van Rossum (Python creator) now works in
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> in almost 5 months... It seems almost no italian people takes care about > Rebol, but everybody know Ruby, Python, PHP, etc...
Alessandro. That is strange logic. OK, let's analyze, why Linux is still used on less than what - 6% of desktops, even if hundreds of developers work on it and it is fully open sourced? There is no one single factor - there is always several factors. First - each new thing has its momentum - it was imo missed for REBOL. Second - bad past of RT - mostly nonexistant communication, sometimes even stalled development for more than year (I remember View update after 18months). Third - killer app - noone for REBOL. Do you think that it is open source nature, which won Ruby a publicity? No, it was Ruby on Rails. And media - once one article appear, others don't want to stay behind and they publish too. I know friends who never saw Ruby on Rails, but know it exists. Fourth - sometimes you also need a bit of a luck ... Opening a blog is good move, but some other things has to happen too. A bit of marketing on R3 site. Some articles, news stories (e.g. for OSNews) etc. But first things first. I don't agree to any publicity, unless we are really ready to show the world what R3 can do. Because - the worst thing is to hype something. I don't want to happen it anymore with REBOL. We should be more honest to the world, not stating we run on 40 platforms, if latest View runs on just two or so .... Why I understand ALL your points, I also ask myself if just stating those and complaining takes us anywhere. I am not blind. I am here for 10 years and I am known as very vocal and critical member of community. But I will not help situation if I just complain, without proposing what should be done. So - suggest - what should be done? :-) Leaving for business trip, will not be probably answer for few days. You should also know, there is a group of ppl, who are interested to help RT with marketing strategy, first goal is to redefine websites .... Cheers, Petr

 [28/42] from: sqlab:gmx at: 19-Nov-2007 12:37


Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> sqlab napsal(a): > >> It seems you got from Saulus to Paulus again. >> >> > > Don't understand, but never mind, I should improve my english :-) >
The correct English translation is a "Road to Damascus" experience.)
>> To release as soon and as often as possibly not only (tid??) bits from >> the kitchen, but the recipe.
<<quoted lines omitted: 21>>
> changing. However - it will not be easy path to follow. > Petr
The past experience influences our opinion and expectations. AR

 [29/42] from: carl:cybercraft at: 19-Nov-2007 16:18


On Monday, 19-Novenber-2007 at 12:07:52 Petr Krenzelok wrote,
>But I will not help situation if I just complain, without proposing what >should be done. So - suggest - what should be done? :-)
1) If RT's a business then it needs to act like one. Which, for starters, means answering every email they receive, ideally within 24 hours. 1a) If RT doesn't like the hassle of email, they should have an interface on their website that replaces email for this job. 2) They need to spell out on their website every little detail about the products they have for sale - not only what they do, but also what they don't do. (So RT doesn't get bothered with too many emails asking silly questions about them.) 3) IF RT promises to add feature X then they should deliver on that promise - not quitely forget about it and promise feature Y a little while later. 4) R3 should not be released until it's performing very well on Windows, OS X and Linux and within their respective web-browsers - and any other OSs they plan to support real soon. (And by R3 I mean its version of Core and View.) 5) If RT's a business then it needs to act like one. Oh, already said that! It needs rubbing home though. If REBOL's not going to be open-source, then for REBOL to succeed RT will have to be business-like. So for 6 I propose... 6) All RT products should be sold from an eBay store. RT should find the feedback score they receive very enlightening... -- Carl Read.

 [30/42] from: sqlab:gmx at: 19-Nov-2007 13:39


All in all very good. Carl Read wrote:
> On Monday, 19-Novenber-2007 at 12:07:52 Petr Krenzelok wrote, > >> But I will not help situation if I just complain, without proposing what >> should be done. So - suggest - what should be done? :-) >> > > 1) If RT's a business then it needs to act like one. Which, for starters, means answering every email they receive, ideally within 24 hours. >
When Bo was there, we got an immediate reply
> 1a) If RT doesn't like the hassle of email, they should have an interface on their website that replaces email for this job. > > 2) They need to spell out on their website every little detail about the products they have for sale - not only what they do, but also what they don't do. (So RT doesn't get bothered with too many emails asking silly questions about them.) > > 3) IF RT promises to add feature X then they should deliver on that promise - not quitely forget about it and promise feature Y a little while later. >
When I bought /command I expected, that the bugs I reported should be fixed in not less than half a year. But I learned, that either their business plan did not work as expected or was altered, probably both.(

 [31/42] from: greg:schofield:iinet:au at: 19-Nov-2007 21:39


To put my two cents in. I believe at this time it is not right to compare REBOL to other languages. REBOL's time has not yet arrived, whereas the other languages are trapped in theirs. What I mean is that I believe a major change in digital technology is already under way. REBOL is set to catch this new wave as it develops. As it stands other languages have the advantage. We are in transition, from enclosed, compiled, over-designed, functionally overfull off-the-shelf bloatware, to more customisable script "included apps... OpenOffice, Inkscape, Gimp, etc.,. Interpreted scripts are used as extensions, sometimes for batch and gui control, but the design is basically traditional and really changing things is well beyond the novice to learn. They are pointed in the right direction, but are cumbersome. An improvement, but not a revolution in design. Python especially, fits in well, as an in-between language. Its varied syntax, various extensions, specialist refinements fits in with bloaty compiled code, but hardly makes it useful to experienced users who are not programmers. LUA is an excellent language to embed in traditional apps giving them an elegant data handling language that is a massive improvement on Python, in terms of consistency and simplicity. The fact that this language, rather than Python, surfaces more in Games, says a lot about its robust easy to learn nature. Then there is REBOL, far removed from the function based languages as it is possible to get, it makes LUA look syntax bound (which is saying something). REBOL takes a bit to get use to there is no doubt about that, it appears far more confusing than it is, and it has dialects. Wonderful things dialects - beautiful. I am standing on the sidelines for R3. I believe there are a number of us. VID needed fixing up, and the fixes in R3 seem to be exactly what is needed - consistency is far more important than endless refinements, after all the Flash dialect seems suited to special needs. PDF dialect is a dream come true - and so it goes on. The potential is enormous, for a reason that sounds ironic. Consistency in inconsistency. That is dialects which can be wildly diverse can be understood through a single language, under the hood there is consistency lurking. Given the development of dialects, the future user has many entry points for controlling their application environment without becoming a programmer, and once they begin to peek beneath the surface, they find a single flexible language. That is power that is not measured in processing cycles. Given REBOL as a Application Environment, rather than just a Script Environment, the time is not yet ripe for it, because we are still trapped within the off-the-self do everything in one package bloatware world. But it is coming to an end, and that is the point. Task based applications require a few things. One critically important area is consistency, and the other is diversity, the only language that offers this seamlessly is REBOL, none of the others and this should not be forgotten. If a user needs to evolve their system to automate some task, or bring together diverse elements to form a task orientated application, they need simple languages and a coherent GUI structure to do so. Without this they are at the mercy of programmers who with the best intentions in the world cannot see the problems of usage as well as an experienced user. To see this come together REBOL needs its own form of clean room - an OS of its own. Not expecting this to be widespread, but rather a naked environment in which to build itself up, work out the best forms of compiled generalised plugins, that are slim, versatile and useful. To get basic apps running well, and extend the notion of reuse, recombination and evolution as user tools. Wildman is a clean room, that establishes consistency across other hosting OSes in an unambiguous way. Wildman is not an added extra, but an essential element needed to develop a true Application Environment by which REBOL can thrive. If Wildman can become a commercial replacement for other OSes, then that is a bonus, but bloated OSes are a curse that needs to be dealt with eventually. A mini-OS with REBOL is a whole different thing. Such a mini-OS requires a fixed HW architecture and decent computer to run - may I repeat PS3. At its present price it is competitive and will be around for years to come. As a development machine for REBOL applications, and as a potential sales in the PS3 market, a Wildman approach (given some fundamental app developments), stands up well against a thumper like Linux. I was hoping that Amiga OS4 and the promised OS5 might go in a similar direction, and provide a solid base for a REBOL like development, alas news from that quarter has not been good of late. I doubt that REBOL will become a popular replacement for existing languages, for I am a little more ambitious for this approach. REBOL should aim to be a replacement for the whole tradition of off-the-shelf bloatware; apps that communicate with each other, consistently, can be pulled apart and resembled, can be edited down for special purposes and remain light-weight, can be combined together as Mega-Applications that remain understandable, support dialects which ordinary users can read and edit as needed - that is a future worth aiming for. So what I am saying, is while publicity would not hurt, I do not see any immediate change in fortunes, this is a period of consolidation, of foundation laying and sorting out the basics well. R3 seems suited to such ambitions and if it takes another year to get it right, that has to be done. I am no programmer, but a number applications, which previously I could see no possibility of doing myself, look doable. That is significant, especially as they are ambitious projects. And one of them, a Verbose PDF/TEI Stylesheet Language has been completely inspired by REBOL, PDF maker dialect, XML handling and my very small adventures playing with the language (until finding REBOL this particular solution had never crossed my mind, considering the recent developments in ebooks something that has ramifications - that says a lot about the language). Don't despair is my message, its is always darkest before the dawn. REBOL is doing far too much right to be passed over, its just not quite the right time for it to flower, and a few more things need to be done. Greg Schofield Perth Australia --- Message Received --- From: Alessandro Manotti <ale870-gmail.com> To: rebolist-rebol.com Reply-To: rebolist-rebol.com Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:23:13 +0100 Subject: [REBOL] Re: Opening a new blog about Rebol? Hello, I have to two points to be highlighted. [1] Amiga... well I love that computer! And I hate Commodore which was the main actor for Amiga failure in the market. I think, generally speaking, it a good concept to compare Rebol to other technologies, which failed in the time. Think to BeOS (great OS, I bought original version and upgrade, I studied it, and now... Palm and Be Inc. destroyed my job.. I have nothing in my hands :-( ) , OS/2 (same...), Commodore Amiga (sigh...), etc... I hope RT will not append Rebol to this list... [2] Interesting. I would nearly consider such opinion as total ignorance of
> facts. Yes, RT might be slow at development, but look at Python ... what > was new in 2.5 version? What is going to be in 3.0 version? >
Hello Petr, basically, you agree. So now, let's try to analyze why Python is used by Google, and why Guido Van Rossum (Python creator) now works in Google... and not Rebol. Let's analyze why Python scripts are heavily used in Linux distributions for configurations, etc.... and not Rebol. Let's analyze why the world, now, always talk about Ruby and not Rebol. Let's analyze why I opened a blog in italian language (and now I created a full featured tool containing blog, web site, forum, wiki), but nobody comments my articles, nobody send me an email, and why I received about 2500 visits in almost 5 months... It seems almost no italian people takes care about Rebol, but everybody know Ruby, Python, PHP, etc... I'm afraid for Rebol: I really like Rebol, and I'm spending time to promote it. Some times ago I wrote to Carl directly, after a brief contact taken with another his developer, and I tried to propose a collaboration with RT just to spread the word of Rebol. Since I really like Rebol, I wanted to try to become an Italian official representative (and maybe European), with trainings, official presentations, taking care to get contacts with some companies, etc... For me it would be a jump in the dark, but it could be a good escape" from my normal job, and it could be a starting point to open a new Rebol office in Italy (and Europe). That one, even if for me was a risk, it could became a concrete advantage either for RT (official office in Europe) and for me (in the past I already got a company for 4 years). Result: Carl did not answer me, at all (until now). So in my mind there was only a concept, a thinking: "Carl does not care about Rebol publicity" (even if it could answer me a simple "no, thanks..."). But ok... this is the way the "father" of Rebol help its child (Rebol). On Nov 19, 2007 10:46 AM, Petr Krenzelok <petr.krenzelok-seznam.cz> wrote:
> > I am not sure. There were many promises from RT in the past already. And > > you know what happened... again and again..
<<quoted lines omitted: 32>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [32/42] from: ale870:g:mail at: 19-Nov-2007 13:45


Hello Petr, Alessandro. That is strange logic. OK, let's analyze, why Linux is still
> used on less than what - 6% of desktops, even if hundreds of developers > work on it and it is fully open sourced? >
Well, you forgot server-side... futhermore, talking about OS, you don't talk about technical people, but everybody. My father uses Windows, I use Ubuntu & Windows ;-) Why I understand ALL your points, I also ask myself if just stating
> those and complaining takes us anywhere. I am not blind. I am here for > 10 years and I am known as very vocal and critical member of community. > But I will not help situation if I just complain, without proposing what > should be done. So - suggest - what should be done? :-) >
I fully agree with you. That is the reason I contacted Carl Sassenrath, just to increase my job quality and Rebol quality/popularity. This was my 2'cents suggestion, but I got no answer (and now?!) Leaving for business trip, will not be probably answer for few days. You
> should also know, there is a group of ppl, who are interested to help RT > with marketing strategy, first goal is to redefine websites .... >
Again, lack of information... where is this group? Over AltMe? Well, why do you use Altme, by limiting its usage (proxy problems, username/password to be requested... etc... ) when you could use a forum? Why not a public/private forum? AltMe does not help new users to get information over Rebol (I know this, because the first time I tried to know Rebol, I could not reach my targets because I didn't know details about Altme!). I fully agree with Carl Read. And I'm not so much confident about R3, since the startup is very similar to the old story: lack of information, planned releases not respected (alpha in the summer...). I'm here waiting for R3. I don't know if (and how) I can develop my apps, etc... R3 status? Completed at... New VID (0..100%): Multithreading: New datatypes: New features (and which are): Rich editor component: Grid (visual table editor, like "excel") component for VID (required for DB): XML support: SOAP support: ActiveX support over Windows: Licensing information (what's free? What is not?): More...... I think there are several people in this mailing list, and some of them follow Rebol from a lot of time. Why Don't you start to help them to migrate their apps? Why don't you supply specifications about R3 (even if they are not perfect, more information could be useful). I'm here waiting for a new peace of good, hot bread! :-) (I'm Italian, and I love hot bread, just cooked!). But I don't know anything about ingredients, layout, time to complete it (even just to get the taste!) Go Rebol Go! On Nov 19, 2007 1:17 PM, Carl Read <carl-cybercraft.co.nz> wrote:
> On Monday, 19-Novenber-2007 at 12:07:52 Petr Krenzelok wrote, > >But I will not help situation if I just complain, without proposing what
<<quoted lines omitted: 24>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [33/42] from: jblake:arsenaldigital at: 19-Nov-2007 9:15


I think the reason that more people haven't used Rebol is because of the features/options in it. Granted, some people have the mindset about opensource but those are not the majority. For example, I'm writing a perl script to automate something. Why am I using Perl and not Rebol? Because I need to launch commands to an app and get the data back. I currently cant do that in Rebol. I did write a Perl script that launched Rebol when I needed to post to a web page. If I'm looking for a app to write a script, and there are 3 that have the features I need, I'll choose the easiest one to use. Rebol is easier but it currently doesn't have the features. Once it has the features, it will become popular if the rebol.dll is open or not. With its small footprint, Rebol fits nicely on the Palm Pilots, IPhones, etc. If we could write apps for those that would connect to servers/dbases/applications.................. John

 [34/42] from: carl:cybercraft at: 20-Nov-2007 0:21


On Monday, 19-Novenber-2007 at 13:39:16 sqlab wrote,
>>> But I will not help situation if I just complain, without proposing what >>> should be done. So - suggest - what should be done? :-)
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
>> >When Bo was there, we got an immediate reply
Ah, yes. Easy to forget it's not just a lot of the earlier users who have left, but a lot of RT's support staff too. (After the venture capital to pay them ran out, I assume.) Holger Kruse springs to mind too. He didn't write much to the list, but when he did, we usually learnt a lot.
>> 3) IF RT promises to add feature X then they should deliver on that promise >- not quitely forget about it and promise feature Y a little while later.
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
>But I learned, that either their business plan did not work as expected >or was altered, probably both.
Wow - bad. And that's another hurdle they'll have to get over before REBOL can be a success - the memory of the burnt fingers from the past. Will mean twice as much work now. First time around I suggested to people they should look into REBOL because it was cool, useful, and I wanted it to succeed - which requires lots using it. Now though, I only suggest people look into it if they want a programming learning experience, as I have no expectation of it becoming a popular language any time soon. Now I'll only actively suggest to people they should look into it after it's an obvious, bona-fide success. Maybe I should've had a 7 on my list... 7) Do what it takes to get REBOL included with Windows Vista... That would grab many a programmers' attention. -- Carl Read.

 [35/42] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 20-Nov-2007 0:31


> I think the reason that more people haven't used Rebol is > because of the features/options in it. Granted, some people > have the mindset about "opensource" but those are not the majority.
Nice point of view. Open source is not essential to REBOL, it would if the RESOURCES to develop the REBOL.DLL (and it's flavour in many enviromnents) would be scarce. Resources for the whole project are but for rebol.dll are not (I hope).
> For example, I'm writing a perl script to automate > something. Why am I using Perl and not Rebol? Because I need
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> features. Once it has the features, it will become popular if > the rebol.dll is open or not.
Another nice hit. The computing enviromnent has changed in the mean time and now we need features not present in the original project. For this reason, as an open minded man CARL has refocused to REBOL.DLL as the main project for REBOL company so people can contribute the way they want/need and the project could restart.
> With its small footprint, Rebol fits nicely on the Palm > Pilots, IPhones, etc. If we could write apps for those that > would connect to servers/dbases/applications..................
It is the solution to this lack of interest.

 [36/42] from: tim-johnsons:web at: 19-Nov-2007 15:56


On Monday 19 November 2007, Giuseppe Chillemi wrote:
> > I think the reason that more people haven't used Rebol is > > because of the features/options in it. Granted, some people
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> would be scarce. Resources for the whole project are but for rebol.dll are > not (I hope).
I have not been following this thread very closely, but much of the content seems to be about REBOL3. I assume that there will also be a rebol.so (for linux systems) Am I correct?
> > With its small footprint, Rebol fits nicely on the Palm > > Pilots, IPhones, etc. If we could write apps for those that > > would connect to servers/dbases/applications.................. > > It is the solution to this lack of interest.
It is highly likely that *nix type of operating systems will make greater inroads in the small appliance market (like phones). Tim

 [37/42] from: pwawood::gmail at: 20-Nov-2007 10:05


John Whilst Rebol is stored in a small file once loaded it uses a lot of memory. Far too much to work under Palm OS which is why there has never been a Palm version of Rebol. Regards Peter On 19/11/2007, John Blake <jblake-arsenaldigital.com> wrote:

 [38/42] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 20-Nov-2007 7:43


Peter Wood napsal(a):
> John > > Whilst Rebol is stored in a small file once loaded it uses a lot of memory. > Far too much to work under Palm OS which is why there has never been a Palm > version of Rebol. >
I think that problem was also the porting effort. That should now not be a problem anymore, as rebol.dll (and yes, Tim, also rebol.so) are keeping only platform independent code, so in theory all is needed is set-up of compiler and you are done. At least much easier than with R2 model. The rest in R3 is open-sourced. As for memory usage, View starts on 6MBs with R2, 2MBs with R3. But - remember that Sun also discontinued JavaME, and they are suggesting to use full Java, as even mobile devices are getting faster. Still having memory efficient tool is an advantage though .... Petr

 [39/42] from: ale870:g:mail at: 20-Nov-2007 8:18


I red that rebol.dll is crossplatform.... maybe they do not talk about Windows DLL, but simply DLL as Dynamic Library... maybe! On Nov 20, 2007 1:56 AM, Tim Johnson <tim-johnsons-web.com> wrote:
> On Monday 19 November 2007, Giuseppe Chillemi wrote: > > > I think the reason that more people haven't used Rebol is
<<quoted lines omitted: 23>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [40/42] from: ale870:g:mail at: 20-Nov-2007 8:28


Just for curiosity, which platforms will be supported from R3? Initial stage? and then which ones are planned? On Nov 20, 2007 7:43 AM, Petr Krenzelok <petr.krenzelok-seznam.cz> wrote:
> Peter Wood napsal(a): > > John
<<quoted lines omitted: 18>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [41/42] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 20-Nov-2007 9:25


Alessandro Manotti napsal(a):
> Just for curiosity, which platforms will be supported from R3? Initial > stage? and then which ones are planned? >
I think that RT can recompile for other platforms as requested by interested users/customers. The tough call will be porting of platform specific things - rebol host environment. RT might have your dll ready in few days, but I doubt that you will port surrounding things in such short timeframe. But - you CAN, and that is important, as the rest of the code is open-source. That should make those radical open-source proponents more happy :-) Petr

 [42/42] from: henrik:webz:dk at: 20-Nov-2007 15:33


On 20/11/2007, at 9.25, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> Alessandro Manotti napsal(a): >> Just for curiosity, which platforms will be supported from R3?
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>
> the code is open-source. That should make those radical open-source > proponents more happy :-)
Flat out: WinXP, Linux and OSX are those of main interest right now. The OSX porting process was started, but I guess some things are not yet ready, because it has not yet appeared. I guess Carl is not finished fighting the module design. (Doesn't help with Gabriele and Cyphre busy with QTask... grrr :-)) I believe that some ports will be maintained internally by RT while others will be 3rd party ports and I think also it will be important to make the porting process very smooth and extremely well documented, because this is essentially a "build it and they will come" effort. If the process is smooth enough, more people will be able to port R3 to their platform. -- Regards, Henrik Mikael Kristensen

Notes
  • Quoted lines have been omitted from some messages.
    View the message alone to see the lines that have been omitted