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Rebol vs PHP

 [1/29] from: jthsmith::unm::edu at: 24-Jan-2001 19:13


Hello, folks. I'm developing a project to serve dynamic data on the web from MS Access databases via SQL, based on user-inputted queries. Could anyone give me the positives and negatives to using Rebol Command instead of PHP for this task? Thanks, Justin Smith New Mexico Natural Heritage Program University of New Mexico Department of Biology 167 Castetter Hall Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131 505-277-3822 x226 505-277-3844 (fax) [jthsmith--unm--edu]

 [2/29] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 25-Jan-2001 20:38


On Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:13:07 -0700 (MST) Justin Smith <[jthsmith--unm--edu]> wrote:
> I'm developing a project to serve dynamic data on the web > from MS Access > databases via SQL, based on user-inputted queries. Could > anyone give me the > positives and negatives to using Rebol Command instead of > PHP for this task?
I think Ralph Roberts uses both PHP and Rebol for his website, and believes that each has their own place. I don't PHP, but I would have thought that PHP being an Apache module would be faster, and less memory/resource intensive. The other point is whether you really want to use Access databases to web serve information. It's intended use is as a desktop database. -- Graham Chiu

 [3/29] from: rebol:techscribe at: 25-Jan-2001 1:03


Hi Justin, Graham, Graham Chiu wrote:
> I don't PHP, but I would have thought that PHP being an > Apache module would be faster, and less memory/resource > intensive.
It probably depends on what exactly you are doing. My experience with PHP is it uses up a lot of memory. I had to split some scripts up into multiple files, because I was getting an "Out of memory" message on a box that has 512MB RAM or more.
> The other point is whether you really want to use Access > databases to web serve information. It's intended use is as > a desktop database.
That's a very good point. There are plenty of very stable, commercial quality Open Source (or at least free) databases out there that are far better suited for an online application. Examples: MySQL, Interbase, FreeBase, and many more. PHP's object implementation is a little weird (look at the trouble you can get yourself into if you use the PHP XML parser from within an object, or if you try to pass the XML parser functions defined in a derived object). Iterating over associative arrays also isn't always fun. While the syntax looks simple enough: while ( list($key, $value) = each ($a_array) { do_something($key, $value); } you actually get each value listed twice: once in assoication with a key that is the index of the value, and a second time with a key that is the key you associated with the value. That's kind of relevant when you want to associate the fieldnames with the values stored in the fields. REBOL does not have the problems I just listed. You can learn REBOL much faster because the REBOL shell is interactive. You can instantly test out ideas for the same reason. REBOL has better error trapping and debugging support. The wealth of datatypes supported by REBOL and its parametric polymorphism make it alot easier to implement code that works as expected. Just compare the code needed under PHP to send an email message, and compare it to the simple REBOL code that you can enter in the REBOL shell
>> send [rebol-list--rebol--com] "Hi guys, really great programming language."
I find that REBOL enables me to express my intentions much faster and more precisely than PHP. If I'm expected to deliver PHP code, I usually prefer to write REBOL functions that will generate the PHP code, and then express my code in REBOL, or write a small dialect and implement a REBOL compiler that generates the appropriate REBOL code based on the code I write in my dialect. One reason for this approach is that PHP has many more syntactic gotchas then REBOL (the obligatory $ sign at the beginning of variables, which is occassionally forgotten, the obligatory -> operator to access object functions and variables, which occassionally ends up being -, the obligatory ; at the end of each statement, which is occassionally forgotten, it slows you down, especially together with PHP's very terse error messages.) In short, PHP is quite cool, REBOL is great. Sometimes you have to use PHP, unless you have access to REBOL/Command, because /Core has no built-in support for databases. But if you were planning to use Access, then quite possible you don't have a database intensive aplication in mind, and using REBOL plain text files will be sufficeint to store your data. Perhaps something as simple as this REBOL [] address-book: [ "Peter" "Smith" "555 5551212" "345 N. Nowhere Rd." "Noc Ity" "NO State" "Barbara" "Jones" "111 121 5555" "543 S. Somewhere Rd." "Somec Ity" Same State ] print [<HTML><HEAD></HEAD><BODY>] print <table> foreach [first-name last-name phone address city state] address-book [ print [<tr><td>] print [first-name last-name phone address city state] print [</tr></td>] ] print </table> print [</BODY></HEAD></HTML>] will do? Hope this helps, Elan

 [4/29] from: al:bri:xtra at: 25-Jan-2001 22:23


Elan wrote:
> address-book: [ > "Peter" "Smith" "555 5551212" "345 N. Nowhere Rd." "Noc Ity" "NO > State" > "Barbara" "Jones" "111 121 5555" "543 S. Somewhere Rd." "Somec Ity" > "Same State" > ]
And even better might be creating two eText files: Peter Smith Telephone: 5555551212 Address: 345 N. Nowhere Road, Noc Ity, NO State. and: Barbara Jones Telephone: 1111215555 Address: 543 S. Somewhere Road, Somec Ity, Same State. then running them through: foreach File read %. [ write replace copy File %.txt %.html HTML eText read File ] and using my Index.r script to automagicatically generate HTML pages with links containing Telephones, Addresses and Names. So that the end result is a web of HTML that links all the possible attributes of the above documents. I've got this software working now. Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://members.nbci.com/AndrewMartin/

 [5/29] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 25-Jan-2001 22:47


On Thu, 25 Jan 2001 01:03:14 -0800 Elan <[rebol--techscribe--com]> wrote:
> It probably depends on what exactly you are doing. My > experience with
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> message on a > box that has 512MB RAM or more.
Hi Elan, I guess I assumed that PHP would already be running on Randy's chosen webserver. And I was under the impression ( possibly mistaken ) that PHP could reuse existing ODBC connections without opening/closing a new one for each query. What happened to RT's Rebol Apache module? Did it have ODBC connectivity? -- Graham Chiu

 [6/29] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 25-Jan-2001 11:08


Graham Chiu wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2001 01:03:14 -0800 > Elan <[rebol--techscribe--com]> wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 14>>
> What happened to RT's Rebol Apache module? Did it have ODBC > connectivity?
As Dan stated - it's somehow strategic product, just not on a priority list right now. ... As for it's connectivity - it was my complaint from the day of Apache beta 1 - nice module with no DB connectivity is to those having capabilities of PHP connectivity, well, for nothing (although Elan is right that text databases are sometimes sufficient). I suggeste RT to add at least library module to Apache and charge some 50 or so USD, as Jeff already showed us how to make php library wrapper. It is still better than having free Apache module with no DB connectivity .... Maybe Apache module could be based upon whole Command product? -pekr-

 [7/29] from: jthsmith:unm at: 25-Jan-2001 11:26


Hello, Elan, Graham, On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Elan wrote:
> It probably depends on what exactly you are doing. My experience with > PHP is it uses up a lot of memory. I had to split some scripts up into > multiple files, because I was getting an "Out of memory" message on a > box that has 512MB RAM or more.
In playing with PHP, I've run into this problem too. I think it's in part due to some bugs in PHP. For example, querying a field via SQL from another query where the field is built as a composition of other fields (e.g. [First Name] & [Last Name]) causes PHP to ask for over 2GB of memory.
> > The other point is whether you really want to use Access > > databases to web serve information. It's intended use is as
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> better suited for an online application. Examples: MySQL, Interbase, > FreeBase, and many more.
I guess I should have clarified. I need to serve an existing Access database, so I'm stuck with it.
> PHP's object implementation is a little weird (look at the trouble you > can get yourself into if you use the PHP XML parser from within an > object, or if you try to pass the XML parser functions defined in a > derived object).
I've found objects in PHP very cumbersome at times, especially syntactically. Overall, PHP is a horrible mess of a language compared to REBOL.
> REBOL does not have the problems I just listed. You can learn REBOL much > faster because the REBOL shell is interactive. You can instantly test
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> message, and compare it to the simple REBOL code that you can enter in > the REBOL shell
Excellent point.
> In short, PHP is quite cool, REBOL is great. Sometimes you have to use > PHP, unless you have access to REBOL/Command, because /Core has no > built-in support for databases. But if you were planning to use Access, > then quite possible you don't have a database intensive aplication in > mind, and using REBOL plain text files will be sufficeint to store your > data. Perhaps something as simple as this
I've already done a lot of this on another website, generating web content from human-readable and updateable text files. It worked nicely. But now I've got to dynamically serve a big (70MB) Access database, so /Command or PHP are necessary. I wish there was a time-limited demo of /Command so I could test out its functionality and compare it to PHP for the specific things I've got to deal with. Well, here are some more specifics that maybe you guys can comment on: I'm restricted to using Microsft's IIS 5 server and an Access database. Does /Command on Windoze allow direct Access database connectivity, or do I have to go through ODBC? Could someone give me examples on using ODBC in /Command? I've encountered a severe problem with PHP: accessing a secure database on a local drive on the server works fine, but if the database and security file are on a network drive, PHP blows up, even though the ODBC connection is fine. Would this be a problem with /Command? I wish I could test it. Are there any special security considerations I should be aware of with /Command for this type of project? I intend to use some kind of template system for generating HTML output. Are there any good implimentations out there that I could use, or would I have to develop something myself? Thanks again for all your input. Already I've received more help on the REBOL list than I have on any of the 'official' PHP lists, which is a good sign. Justin Smith New Mexico Natural Heritage Program University of New Mexico Department of Biology 167 Castetter Hall Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131 505-277-3822 x226 505-277-3844 (fax) [jthsmith--unm--edu]

 [8/29] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 26-Jan-2001 11:30


Hi Justin, On Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:26:45 -0700 (MST) Justin Smith <[jthsmith--unm--edu]> wrote:
> Does /Command on Windoze allow direct Access database > connectivity, or do I > have to go through ODBC? Could someone give me examples
ODBC.
> on using ODBC in > /Command? >
Examples are given in the manual that comes with Command :-)
> I've encountered a severe problem with PHP: accessing a > secure database on
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> is fine. Would this be a problem with /Command? I wish > I could test it.
Submit a business reason to [bo--rebol--com] and he may send you the eval version. I used the eval version accessing ODBC across a network and found no problems. However, there were major problems with ODBC and the database I was using - Interbase. You would have to check with RT how compatible it would be with Access. But I was able to use Rebol/command to spider a suppliers password protected website, grab pricing information, and insert the data back into my web server which I thought was pretty neat ( and pointless as I can just ask for a price list :-) ) -- Graham Chiu

 [9/29] from: allenk:powerup:au at: 26-Jan-2001 12:29


> I wish there was a time-limited demo of /Command so I could test out its > functionality and compare it to PHP for the specific things I've got to
deal
> with. Well, here are some more specifics that maybe you guys can comment > on:
A 30 day demo can be created for you upon request, I believe. Ask [dan--rebol--com] Also you can write /Command scripts and compile with the REBOL Encapsulator. It is a cheap way to test.
> I'm restricted to using Microsft's IIS 5 server and an Access database.
As much as I love REBOL, if above are the parameters to work with, I would suggest sticking to ASP, anything else would be slower in that set up. ASP can do about 39 pps, php upto 42pps, CFM 29 pps, REBOL probably somewhere similar. ASP is spagheti (but probably no more than PHP), but you can have a small choice of server side languages, Jscript, VbScript, PerlScript and other installed interpretors. (I want REBOL to get on that list) ASP has the advantage that it can also use dsnless connections or dsn connection strings, where as REBOL/Command ODBC requires a system dsn.With connection strings you don't have to rely on, or wait for, your ISP to correctly set the dsn. Regards, Allen K

 [10/29] from: rebol:techscribe at: 25-Jan-2001 21:31


Hi Allen, you wrote:
> As much as I love REBOL, if above are the parameters to work with, I would > suggest sticking to ASP, anything else would be slower in that set up. ASP > can do about 39 pps, php upto 42pps, CFM 29 pps, REBOL probably somewhere > similar. ASP is spagheti (but probably no more than PHP), but you can have a > small choice of server side languages, Jscript, VbScript, PerlScript and > other installed interpretors. (I want REBOL to get on that list) >
These are interesting numbers. You estimate 10pps difference between ASP and REBOL peak peformance. a) I wonder if there are cases in which REBOL outperforms ASP? b) Peak pps performance is not the only criteria for language choice. c) How about letting ASP handle what it's good at - MS db access - and letting REBOL do the rest? (I.e. REBOL requests db results from ASP and uses them, when necessary? BTW, Do you happen to know of a stanardized benchmark that tests more than peak performance? Take Care, Elan

 [11/29] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 26-Jan-2001 11:49


Hello, You should probably make your end desires more clear if you want to make an accurate decision. Everybody has favorites, and usaully for a good reason. Before I dare make a recommendation, to start I would like to hear: What platform are you on now? Next year? In ten years? Are you platform flexible? Maximum simultanius users? Next year? In ten years? Are you on a money budget? Time budget? Is this a quick fix or a lasting solution? What languages/servers are you familiar/comfortable with? How important is simplicity to you? What sort of things will you be serving (transactions, graphics, everything)? Are you married to any other systems/programs (like Access)? --Ryan

 [12/29] from: jthsmith:unm at: 26-Jan-2001 13:03


Hello, Graham, I've emailed Dan at REBOL about an eval version. Haven't heard back yet, but hopefully I will soon. Sounds like ODBC over the network will work, which is a major problem with using PHP for this project. Hopefully everything will work nicely. Thanks for your help, Justin ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:30:01 +1300 From: Graham Chiu <[gchiu--compkarori--co--nz]> Reply-To: [rebol-list--rebol--com] To: [rebol-list--rebol--com] Subject: [REBOL] Re: Rebol vs PHP Hi Justin, On Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:26:45 -0700 (MST) Justin Smith <[jthsmith--unm--edu]> wrote:
> Does /Command on Windoze allow direct Access database > connectivity, or do I > have to go through ODBC? Could someone give me examples
ODBC.
> on using ODBC in > /Command? >
Examples are given in the manual that comes with Command :-)
> I've encountered a severe problem with PHP: accessing a > secure database on
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> is fine. Would this be a problem with /Command? I wish > I could test it.
Submit a business reason to [bo--rebol--com] and he may send you the eval version. I used the eval version accessing ODBC across a network and found no problems. However, there were major problems with ODBC and the database I was using - Interbase. You would have to check with RT how compatible it would be with Access. But I was able to use Rebol/command to spider a suppliers password protected website, grab pricing information, and insert the data back into my web server which I thought was pretty neat ( and pointless as I can just ask for a price list :-) ) -- Graham Chiu Justin Smith New Mexico Natural Heritage Program University of New Mexico Department of Biology 167 Castetter Hall Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131 505-277-3822 x226 505-277-3844 (fax) [jthsmith--unm--edu]

 [13/29] from: jthsmith:unm at: 26-Jan-2001 13:19


Hello, Ryan. On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Ryan Cole wrote:
> Hello, > You should probably make your end desires more clear if you want to make an > accurate decision. Everybody has favorites, and usaully for a good reason. > > Before I dare make a recommendation, to start I would like to hear: > > What platform are you on now? Next year? In ten years?
Microsoft Win2K server, IIS 5.0. We'll be sticking with IIS for the forseable future.
> Are you platform flexible?
Nope.
> Maximum simultanius users? Next year? In ten years?
Right now, no more than 10 probably. This isn't ever likely to climb over a couple dozen.
> Are you on a money budget? Time budget?
Money: we'd rather do it right than cheaply, hence looking at /Command over the free PHP. As for time, I've got a couple months.
> Is this a quick fix or a lasting solution?
Lasting solution.
> What languages/servers are you familiar/comfortable with?
Servers: IIS Languages: HTML, REBOL/Core, PHP, C++
> How important is simplicity to you?
Very, as non-programmers may have to do some maintenance. PHP is too messy in this regard, and I'd have to do a lot of object-orienting to produce a simplified API.
> What sort of things will you be serving (transactions, graphics, everything)?
Extensive text-based data for this part of the project, including lots of sub-form/sub-table type data. The served data will be based on sophisticated user querying of multiple fields. I'll also be developing interactive mapping with ArcIMS. If I could eventually interlink the two components, that'd be wonderful.
> Are you married to any other systems/programs (like Access)?
Access right now, although eventually we may be moving to an Oracle backend. I hope this is helpful, Ryan. Justin Justin Smith New Mexico Natural Heritage Program University of New Mexico Department of Biology 167 Castetter Hall Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131 505-277-3822 x226 505-277-3844 (fax) [jthsmith--unm--edu]

 [14/29] from: rebol:techscribe at: 26-Jan-2001 14:22


Hi Justin, my $0.02: Since you are not expecting a large amount of users, I don't think that pages per second plays a tremendously significant role for you. From the point of view of speed of implementation, the ease with which you can add sophisticated (processing) features, and ease of maintenance my favorite would be ... (can you guess it? ;-). Take Care, Elan

 [15/29] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 29-Jan-2001 17:54


IIS with Command should be more than fine. If you want to get fancy, you may create a dialect or web forms for the non-programmers to update things. From personal experience, non-programmers love using update forms. Most freak out when they have to write anything in a particular order into a computer, even when you go to great lengths to make it easy. I only read about the ArcIMS system for about 20 seconds. Basicly since it works with a web browser, linking it should be elementary. --Ryan Justin Smith wrote:
> Hello, Ryan. > On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Ryan Cole wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 47>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
-- Ryan Cole Programmer Analyst www.iesco-dms.com 707-468-5400 I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. -Einstein

 [16/29] from: carlos:lorenz at: 29-Mar-2001 14:48


hi, anyone in the list has some experience using REBOL + PHP? carlos

 [17/29] from: ralph:abooks at: 29-Mar-2001 13:45


> hi, > > anyone in the list has some experience using REBOL + PHP? > > carlos >
Ah! My pet subject, HYBRID programming! Yes, I often combine the ease of REBOL with the database savvy of PHP. See my website, http://abooks.com, as an example. --Ralph

 [18/29] from: gjones05:mail:orion at: 29-Mar-2001 13:00


From: Lorenz
> anyone in the list has some experience using REBOL + PHP?
I've done a bit of mixed language programming. Any specific questions? --Scott Jones

 [19/29] from: carlos:lorenz at: 29-Mar-2001 19:44


Well thatīs because i know very little about PHP I wonder if itīs possible to run a REBOL script from within a PHP script. carlos

 [20/29] from: ralph:abooks at: 29-Mar-2001 18:04


> Well thatīs because i know very little about PHP I wonder if itīs possible > to run a REBOL script from within a PHP script. > > carlos >
Easy if you're using an Apache server... the PHP code would be: virtual ("/cgi-bin/script.r"); --Ralph Roberts

 [21/29] from: dev1:awarehouse at: 29-Mar-2001 23:15


Interesting...how did you use REBOL in the site? Are any of the scripts visible? Thx, Dave De Graff

 [22/29] from: ralph:abooks at: 2-Apr-2001 20:31


>Interesting...how did you use REBOL in the site? Are any of the scripts >visible? > >Thx, > >Dave De Graff >
Thanks for the kind comment, Dave... The scripts that search our booklist (we sell almost a thousand different titles now) were written in REBOL. The entire underlying e-commerce system that allows a customer to click on any title showing on the site on any page (and it's a dynamic site with the possibility of hundreds of pages) is PURE unadulterated REBOL. The same system, by the way, also handles fulfillment for the REBOLpress books, etc. Kinda proud of it<g> and it's generated a lot of good orders for us, operating flawlessly since July of last year. REBOL is just plain EASY to develop powerful web applications in. You may have noticed the very first line of the http://abooks.com site, the one welcoming visitors and showing their IP number, etc. Here's the script for that tasty little enhancement: #!/rebol/rebol --cgi REBOL [ ] ip: system/options/cgi/remote-addr print "Content-Type: text/plain^/" print "<font face='ARIAL' size='-2'>" print ["Thank you for visiting this page from<br>IP: " ip "- - - Name: " read join dns:// ip] print [<br>" on" now/date "at" now/time "our time (U.S. Eastern)."] print "<BR><BR></font>" Long live the REBOLution! --Ralph Roberts author REBOL FOR DUMMIES get it at http://rebolpress.com

 [23/29] from: brett:codeconscious at: 3-Apr-2001 12:08


Hi Ralph,
> Kinda proud of it<g> and it's generated a lot of good orders for us, > operating flawlessly since July of last year. REBOL is just plain EASY to > develop powerful web applications in.
To achieve the sort of flawless operation that your site has would require not just the stability of Rebol but also of some well thought out code. If you reflect on the operation of your site over the last nine months, do have you any thoughts about what makes a stable (or non-stable) Rebol cgi script? Or indeed any other reflections. Thanks, Brett.

 [24/29] from: ptretter:norcom2000 at: 2-Apr-2001 21:50


Ralph have you tried Doc Kimbel's mySQL driver yet? If so, what did you think of the performance features of the driver verses PHP. Just curious since I would like to get into mySQL and use Doc's driver to create something fairly robust. Paul Tretter

 [25/29] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 3-Apr-2001 6:19


Paul Tretter wrote:
> Ralph have you tried Doc Kimbel's mySQL driver yet? If so, what did you > think of the performance features of the driver verses PHP. Just curious > since I would like to get into mySQL and use Doc's driver to create > something fairly robust. >
I would be interested in some benchmarking too. But anyway - Rebol/Core/Pro will cost very affordable price!. It will feature /library component, and IIRC jeff posted here some mySQL and postGresSQL library wrappers - should be faster, no? -pekr-

 [26/29] from: d_urmson::yahoo at: 3-Apr-2001 13:00


> >Interesting...how did you use REBOL in the site? Are any of the scripts >>visible?
<<quoted lines omitted: 15>>
>one welcoming visitors and showing their IP number, etc. Here's the script >for that tasty little enhancement:
some feedback for u ralph: on abooks.com, i couldn't find yur book by using the search engine - 'rebol', 'dummies', 'rebol for dummies' - none brought up any books. when i did get to the book, the text was wayy too big (no leading at all - gaps between lines) - i use mac, ie5. great book BTW! ciao d x

 [27/29] from: ralph:abooks at: 3-Apr-2001 8:27


I have run tests on my big booklist database using both PHP and Doc Kimbel's drivers. Since PHP uses an Apache module, it's definitely quicker. However, the Kimbel/REBOL conbination is so much EASIER. Once REBOL gets an Apache module in production, I think we'll have a REAL solution. As it is, I will still be using REBOL for some MySQL tasks, again because I can program them quicker. Doc Kimbel, he the man! --Ralph

 [28/29] from: ralph:abooks at: 3-Apr-2001 9:12


>To achieve the sort of flawless operation that your site has would require >not just the stability of Rebol but also of some well thought out code.
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
>Thanks, >Brett.
A very good question, Brett, and one that caused me really to think. I use REBOL for lots of stuff. While I've been programming in various languages for over 20 years professionally, I am still more of a writer and publisher than a programmer. We are a small company expanding explosively with far too few people (and I'm the only programmer). I don't have a lot of time to spend "polishing" code. If I need a script, I usually need it by yesterday. So, far too often, my code is nonelegant, even (yes, I admit it) sloppy. But it gets the job done. Now I've never thought about REBOL in this context before, but that kind of usage is a true torture test of any language. My two major tools in the hundreds of websites I maintain and write web applications for are REBOL and PHP. I am equally sloppy (to put it nicer, rushed ) in both languages. On consideration of the results, I find REBOL is more reliable. Let me sum this up by way of an analogy. Back in 1968, I was in the infantry in Vietnam. We carried M-16 rifles, which was then a new tactical weapon and a lot of us troops were complaining it jammed all too often. In fact, several guys in my unit were using captured AK-47s, the Communist assault rifle stamped out of old rice cake tins up in China (or so it looked). But the durn thing was reliable. So this representitive from Colt Arms (a civilian) came out to my outfit in the jungle one day. He gave us this great song and dance about how reliable the M-16 was, yada yada yada. To top it off, he throws an M-16 into a pool of muddy water. Now I'm sure this demo worked flawlessly at all the other places he'd been, but when he pulled the rifle out and attempted to fire it, the sucker essentially embedded its first round in the firing chamber and he couldn't clear the weapon. A bad, bad thing to have happen if you are in the middle of a firefight. Well, American troops being American troops, some smart ass (wasn't me, but could've been) tossed a captured AK-47 into the same muddy pool. Plucked it out, and rock and rolled through a whole magazine of ammo without a glitch. Needless to say, confidence in Colt's baby was not intensified. That's how I perceive the difference between PHP and REBOL (and ASP and ColdFusion, et al). In the middle of a firefight (like I GOTTA get an application up and running TODAY) I reach for REBOL. If I have the leisure to sight the weapon in, assume an approved firing position, and plenty of time to snap off lines of code well, yes, there are targets PHP is better suited for, but this is seldom true in combat or making a small company profitable on a shoestring budget. Usually, I have no time but a desperate need, so (like our rifles in Vietnam that never left our sides day or night) REBOL is the one I sleep with. And like the rifle, it saves my butt from time to time. That's the difference. Of course, it always helps a lot if you know which end dispenses the bullets or code. --Ralph Roberts author REBOL FOR DUMMIES buy it at http://rebolpress.com this email (c)2001 Creativity, Inc. 'cause I WILL use the analogy in a book one of these days<g>

 [29/29] from: brett:codeconscious at: 4-Apr-2001 10:05


> Of course, it always helps a lot if you know which end dispenses the
bullets
> or code.
Thanks for the engaging analogy :) Brett.

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