IT'S NOT FREE - MORE!
[1/5] from: robbo1mark::aol::com at: 22-May-2001 9:00
PEKR / EVERYBODY PEKR my comments were NOT meant to be accusing against any specific individuals & certainly NOT you personally. I like you and agree with about 99% of the comments you make on this list. YES in certain ways RT Policies may or may not hinder the progress of REBOL, as a technology, in the ways you mentioned. YES users do not care how RT pay the bills, just like the BE Inc. versus Microsoft analogy you mentioned. Companies exist to maximise profits, users want maximum utility, that is the external economic environment in which we ALL participate. But RT still have to generate revenue for themselves regardless whether we *CARE* about them or not. As a user you don't have to pay for REBOL software if it does NOT provide a sufficiently attractive value proposition to you. The value derived must be greater than the price, that is true of any good or service. REBOL TECHNOLOGIES Inc. dictate the license terms, the prices and what features go into each product release, you either accept those terms or you don't it is as simple as that. YOU can plead & cajole with Carl & RT to see things from your perspective of point of view but at the end of the day, they are free to decide & do what suits their interests best. Hence no /Apache for the time being at least. I still stand by that you get nothing for nothing, you must either contribute in terms of money or in terms of investing your time & skills in creating an environment that possibly suits your needs better. There are many ways to further REBOL as a language and as a technology. Support RT Inc. by buying their products where they provide a good value proposition to you as a user, promote REBOL as a technology if publicity is your strength & writing is your skill. If REBOL doesn't provide what features you need then why not try to produce what functionality you need by yourself & with the help of like minded others. REBOL has lots of advantages with regards to PERL, PYTHON, JAVA, TCL, RUBY, PHP, SCHEME / GUILE etc. It curently has some big disadvantages too in terms of libraries, extension modules, widespread adoption and support, source code availability etc. etc. However none of these other languages which provide certain adavantages in some aspects over REBOL just happened into existance. They are the result of years of continuous hard work to get them where they are today and to continue to extend them & improve them. These languages and their various features don't just magically come into existence, this only happens by people caring enough about them to invest either their time and / or money into making them a reality. The exact same holds true for REBOL as a language, a technology, and as a company. REBOL *is* more than REBOL Technologies Inc., we the users and the community matter too. It is a mutual dependancy, by all means complain about certain things they do, but whilst they may listen they will not always act accordingly. Their needs are not always exactly the same as your needs. Producers & Consumers will always have differing goals and motivations, that is just the way of things. Everybody should remember that, the RT folks are good people making great & useful products at a fair price. If you don't like or agree with their terms & conditions then do something about it! or else do nothing about it, just don't be surprised when everything doesn't turn out specifically to your liking. IF YOU WANT THINGS YOUR WAY THEN YOU'VE GOT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN! Raindrops keep falling on my head, but that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turning red, crying's not for me, 'cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining! because I'm FREE, nothing's worrying me. That's all Mark Dickson
[2/5] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 22-May-2001 16:02
> PEKR / EVERYBODY > > PEKR my comments were NOT meant to be accusing > against any specific individuals & certainly > NOT you personally. I like you and agree with > about 99% of the comments you make on this list.
It was not so personal as it could seem to be, I am OK :-) While I can agree with all you said - there is simply the fact of another POV, as you said. Of course that RT can do whatever they want with their product. But I think most ppl complain here, just because they DO CARE of Rebol and its future. We use several various tools here at work, and I really don't care if I pay for them or not. But I like Rebol so much that I will better express what do I really think - and I think that the way as it is now, RT itself hurts their profits! We don't have wide enough userbase .. yet. If Rebol would be used by some 10 mil. ppl, XX books were written about it, XX Rebol based products sold, then OK, let's charge for it. But first - let's find some way how to spread Rebol to the masses. RT switched back from tool development company and decided to go with /Express. Just few weeks before /Express was ready we saw sudden strategy change back towards the tools. Now /Express sleeps somewhere on product page, with no further advertising ... So if we are talking tools once again, why to abandon /Apache for e.g.? Do you think that someone will develop some site building tool based upon CGI? Without database access? Bear in mind please, that most of such tools come from hobbyists first. How do we support them? By selling them 350 USD /Command? Average sallary here in Czech Republic is some 500 - 600 USD, and I can imagine countries where the situation is even worse. DocKimbel for e.g. decided to stop FastCGI /Pro based development, because /Command will provide it. Someone mentioned RT failure to discuss involved userbase before they decide to do some strategic change. I would like to add, that we a) never heard from CEO (and I though we are kind of community like Amiga Inc. has) b) never heard about what is planned for future - all we know is - "there is plan" :-) I just hope RT + Eight Inc. finds some way to make rebol more popular and widespread ... ... but enough of complaints - RT has now some feedback to read and decide their further steps .... going to study "Rugby" script - seems promissing :-) -pekr-
[3/5] from: gjones05:mail:orion at: 22-May-2001 10:33
From: "Petr Krenzelok"
<snip> > going to study "Rugby" script - seems promissing :-)
Is "Rugby" a typo, meaning Ruby? Or are you referring to a REBOL script? --Scott Jones
[4/5] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 22-May-2001 9:14
No typo Scott, Check it out, its a system for executing functions on remote machines. Pretty cool stuff, you can choose what functions you want to export. I will set up one today on my server at work, so people can check it out. Get Rugby using Desktop from the library at rebol under tcp. --Ryan GS Jones wrote:
> From: "Petr Krenzelok" > <snip>
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
-- Ryan Cole Programmer Analyst www.iesco-dms.com 707-468-5400 I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. -Einstein
[5/5] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 22-May-2001 9:41
Like all of us, I care very much about REBOL too. This is really a tight relationship we have. We owe RT for providing such a wonderful language, and they owe us for taking the time to learn and develop it. For RT to succeed, we must succeed. For us to succeed, RT must succeed. This whole incident has demostrated the strength of this relationship. When RT did something that hurt, we felt it. What amazes me is how many did not say "ouch," I would like to commend them. RT please reconsider. We want to sell your products. How about providing incentives? I would love to get paid to turn people on to REBOL! Or maybe just charge on sold programs, this way we can still sneak it in to internal usage. There are many alternatives. --Ryan
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