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IOS account (was RE: Re: Is this a bug ([5 <])?)

 [1/14] from: rebolek::seznam::cz at: 14-Nov-2002 14:21


> I think that if IOS would scale well, we could all leave this ml and > move to IOS completly. The cooperation there is much closer, ppl can > participate in various projects, etc. Nice Rebol world :-)
-pekr- Hm, but it's really hard to get IOS developer account so I gave it up :( I've got only evaluation account and nothing's happening on that server so I'm not using IOS at all. Well, bad I know but what can I do? bb --- Odchoz=ED zpr=E1va neobsahuje viry. Zkontrolov=E1no antivirov=FDm syst=E9mem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz). Verze: 6.0.410 / Virov=E1 b=E1ze: 231 - datum vyd=E1n=ED: 31.10.2002

 [2/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 14-Nov-2002 14:50


Boleslav Brezovsky wrote:
>>I think that if IOS would scale well, we could all leave this ml and >>move to IOS completly. The cooperation there is much closer, ppl can
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
>so I'm not using IOS at all. >Well, bad I know but what can I do?
... talk to right ppl ;-) Wait a bit, I will try some magic ;-) -pekr-

 [3/14] from: chalz:earthlink at: 14-Nov-2002 22:12


> >>I think that if IOS would scale well, we could all leave this ml and > >>move to IOS completly. The cooperation there is much closer, ppl can > >>participate in various projects, etc. Nice Rebol world :-)
I'd rather not, personally. I prefer having all of this material in one area - eg, my mail box - instead of having to load up a dozen different apps just to go through email :/

 [4/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 15-Nov-2002 4:54


Charles wrote:
>>>>I think that if IOS would scale well, we could all leave this ml and >>>>move to IOS completly. The cooperation there is much closer, ppl can
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
>area - eg, my mail box - instead of having to load up a dozen different apps >just to go through email :/
What email? There would be no email at all. Have you seen IOS working? It is like development "in Rebol", "for Rebol". You can create custom reblets, which help you to let project going, and better organised. No email based system can replace it easily. And as for email - I work on 2 - 3 machines. When I download my email on one of them, it is not available on another ones. IOS is different - it simply syncs - so where you go ... your data go with you ... Look, we are slowly but working on VID update. It would NEVER be finished by email way. We already exchanged some 3000 msgs in conference and as for me, at least 5000 messages in messenger. You need your answers fast, not waiting for email to arrive. You would have to use IRC or other kind of IM and then - where is your integration? As I said - one of the drawbacks of IOS is its scalability. If it would handle hundreds of active users rather than tens, it would be even cooler experience .... -pekr-

 [5/14] from: chalz:earthlink at: 14-Nov-2002 23:31


> Look, we are slowly but working on VID update. It would NEVER be > finished by email way. We already exchanged some 3000 msgs in conference > and as for me, at least 5000 messages in messenger. You need your > answers fast, not waiting for email to arrive. You would have to use IRC
I am sorry, I thought you meant the /entire/ list. Like, everyone all together. Rats. My mistake. *sighs* Tired and shouldn't do email when I'm tired. Damn, I'm sorry.

 [6/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 15-Nov-2002 6:00


Charles wrote:
>>Look, we are slowly but working on VID update. It would NEVER be >>finished by email way. We already exchanged some 3000 msgs in conference
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
>together. Rats. My mistake. *sighs* Tired and shouldn't do email when I'm >tired. Damn, I'm sorry.
:-) No need to apology. I know there is still place for ml, especially for language newcomers, but I really meant whole list :-) It was just an idea. So let's forget the list, but at least rebol community projects - that's where IOS is really usefull ... and I think that advanced cooperation reblets (white-board etc.) have yet to be born ... -pekr-

 [7/14] from: rebol-list2:seznam:cz at: 18-Nov-2002 13:47


Hello Petr, Friday, November 15, 2002, 4:54:21 AM, you wrote: PK> What email? There would be no email at all. Have you seen IOS working? PK> It is like development "in Rebol", "for Rebol". You can create custom PK> reblets, which help you to let project going, and better organised. No PK> email based system can replace it easily. And as for email - I work on 2 PK> - 3 machines. When I download my email on one of them, it is not PK> available on another ones. IOS is different - it simply syncs - so where PK> you go ... your data go with you ... PK> Look, we are slowly but working on VID update. It would NEVER be PK> finished by email way. We already exchanged some 3000 msgs in conference PK> and as for me, at least 5000 messages in messenger. You need your PK> answers fast, not waiting for email to arrive. You would have to use IRC PK> or other kind of IM and then - where is your integration? PK> As I said - one of the drawbacks of IOS is its scalability. If it would PK> handle hundreds of active users rather than tens, it would be even PK> cooler experience .... PK> -pekr- Please, don't take this post as a serious arguing but.... ...I hope there still will be email. I've seen IOS working and I have to say that there are still weak parts of it. Just one small example: there are two apps called "Expert" and "VID-Expert". In the "Expert" app there are 6 questions none of them is answered. (my last question was if someone is reading these questions and I'm sure that nobody does). On 23.8.2002 I needed help with the alpha image so I asked in the "VID-Expert" app and there is still no answer, the same question was sent to ML on 14.11.2002 at 4:44PM the first reply on ML was (from you:) at 7:00PM and since now I have 10 replies of this thread in my inbox! My conclusion is that the IOS "Expert" apps are useless! I know that Carl must be quiet busy so I don't try to spam him by IOS messenger. Just for the first time, when I wanted to know his opinion about the "Invalid ..." errors on 19.Aug. but I've no answer yet:( again The IOS conference app. has no threading so it's just a chat with several rooms (one of them is named "chat") not a conference in the way how discussion boards works. Your example of no possibility to work with emails on more then one computer is not correct as well, because if you set your email client not to delete messages on the email server, your emails will be available on all computers with access to the email server. Yes, IOS uses nice syncs so all data are updated when you connect, but that has weak point as well because if you would have too many active IOS users, the ammount of data may be quite large (what if someone adds one 100MB file to IOS? This file will be downloaded by all IOS users - if there is no security check to prevent downloads of large files) For most IOS apps you have to be connected to the IOS server to do something. So if I want to send new bug report, I've no choice to write it offline etc. (but that's probably ok because I'm just a dialup looser without creditcards; rich clients probably have their good connections) And the VID project, maybe if cyphre would send some of his styles to ML some of them would be already in use. I know that it's important to make standarts but to have more solutions for one thing is much more better than none. Only real usage may highlight which of the solutions is the best. I like Rebol, and I like IOS, hope some of these comments may help to make IOS better, but I like ML as well and the main reason is that it's free for everybody, not just for a small community. cheers Oldes =( Oliva David )=======================( [oliva--david--seznam--cz] )== =( Earth/Europe/Czech_Republic/Brno )============================= =( coords: [lat: 49.22 long: 16.67] )=============================

 [8/14] from: ingo:2b1 at: 21-Nov-2002 20:42


Hi Oldes, I'm normally not in the "me too" business, but that'been exactly, what I always wanted to say about IOS. Well, the shortcomings of the "experts" are simply that they aren't used, but I guess they _could_ be usefull. But you are living right about conference - it doesn't even scale to busy days among the few people using it. Anything without threading is useless on larger discussion volumes. It should be easy to add threading, though. But still, it wouldn't be as accesible as a mailing list. On Cyphres styles, there's a remark to not spread them outside the developers server - that's why I'm not really using them. Of course this only hampers their evolution, imo. And missing offline usability is something I once told Carl about, got no answer, though. But I guess they are targetting those with "always on" connections, too sad. I hope scalability of IOS will improve over time, don't forget its at 1.0 for now. That's it, I guess. Kind regards, Ingo

 [9/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 21-Nov-2002 21:53


Ingo Hohmann wrote:
> Hi Oldes, > I'm normally not in the "me too" business, but that'been exactly, what
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> busy days among the few people using it. Anything without threading is > useless on larger discussion volumes.
I am not so sure here... It is chat, not some "stupid" off-line ml. I remember my heavy usage of IRC and threading in on-line chat would completly fail ... Yes, some features are missing, but business related ones ... e.g. ability to flag message to some topic for central knowledge-base usage etc. What I am worried about however, is IOS scalability - it has really its limits for quite low amount of users. Some time ago Carl told us, that RT solved that problem, but it was not introduced to IOS yet. Maybe on other servers, I don't know ...
> It should be easy to add threading, though. But still, it wouldn't be > as accesible as a mailing list. > > On Cyphres styles, there's a remark to not spread them outside the > developers server - that's why I'm not really using them. Of course > this only hampers their evolution, imo.
Who said that? We just need to stabilise a bit. Some developers invest tens of hours into the stuff, as free time permits them to do so. They test, I test, I give a feedback. Romano and Cyphre can tell you, that I will not agree to something less than realtime. Said that, AltMe would NOT go thru my QA service ;-) You can await powerfull and auto-resize system in beta hopefully next week ... we can release to ml, if ppl are interested. I think, that especially for auto-resize system, ppl should test it, as RT is not sure about its addition to VID.It would be good to have feedback from more ppl ...
> And missing offline usability is something I once told Carl about, got > no answer, though. But I guess they are targetting those with "always > on" connections, too sad. > > I hope scalability of IOS will improve over time, don't forget its at > 1.0 for now.
IOS, otoh, is targeted mainly to businesses. RT would have set proper VAR/OEM sales channels, tech support and have clear roadmap for product development, and something like that costs money. How many new reblets we saw introduced last year? Some of us, especially those coming from business sphere, would like to see IOS grow. I think that some of us will offer its further development to RT, so it will be up to them to decide. IOS is good product, but if not developed further (even marketing-wise), well ... who knows what happens ;-) -pekr-

 [10/14] from: ingo:2b1 at: 22-Nov-2002 7:17


Hi Petr, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> Ingo Hohmann wrote: > > Hi Oldes,
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> remember my heavy usage of IRC and threading in on-line chat would > completly fail ...
I don't know, I never chatted. But I'm not able to follow the conference on busy days. And the stupid remark is from you - does this mean anything? :-)
> Yes, some features are missing, but business related > ones ... e.g. ability to flag message to some topic for central > knowledge-base usage etc. What I am worried about however, is IOS > scalability - it has really its limits for quite low amount of users. > Some time ago Carl told us, that RT solved that problem, but it was > not introduced to IOS yet. Maybe on other servers, I don't know ...
Hope to see it soon.
>> It should be easy to add threading, though. But still, it wouldn't >> be as accesible as a mailing list.
You would need to be "in" to be "in" - use Rebol to some extent to be able to get to the list, use something additionally to your mailer (I guess nearly everyone with access to the web uses email).
> > On Cyphres styles, there's a remark to not spread them outside the > > developers server - that's why I'm not really using them. Of course > > this only hampers their evolution, imo. > > Who said that?
users/cyphre/style-set/readme.txt
> We just need to stabilise a bit. Some developers invest > tens of hours into the stuff, as free time permits them to do so. They > test, I test, I give a feedback.
Could be a problem with my install - all my files are from around july. They _are_ flagged as "not in sync" but that happens so often, I don't pay much attention any more. After all, I'm only toying around with Rebol in some personal projects. So I don't feel expert enough to be of much help - though testing would be possible, but see above.
> Romano and Cyphre can tell you, that I > will not agree to something less than realtime. Said that, AltMe would
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> sure about its addition to VID.It would be good to have feedback from > more ppl ...
I've seen some of the examples: I like it! It should be added to vid, imo.
>> And missing offline usability is something I once told Carl about, >> got no answer, though. But I guess they are targetting those with
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>
> Some of us, especially those coming from business sphere, would like > to see IOS grow.
I don't come from a business standpoint, but I'd like it to grow, too. If I didn't bother - well, I wouldn't ;-)
> I think that some of us will offer its further development to RT, so > it will be up to them to decide. IOS is good product, but if not > developed further (even marketing-wise), well ... who knows what > happens ;-)
Weeell, I've seen aggressive marketing win too often over good products, I won't sjpeculate on that. Kind regards, Ingo

 [11/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 22-Nov-2002 8:34


Ingo Hohmann wrote:
> Hi Petr, > Petr Krenzelok wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 19>>
> conference on busy days. And the stupid remark is from you - does this > mean anything? :-)
Yes, it means something. I used "stupid", in quotes, as compare the feeling one gets from being long time chat user vs long time ml user. Both system have its place here, but why should I explain it to someone, who admits he "never chatted"? ;-)) Well, I do remember few IRC sessions, moderated, where even Carl was available. It was some big Amiga event, hundreds of ppl at IRC channel. Ppl are in-touch one with each other. But the experience comes, only if you try it ...
>> Yes, some features are missing, but business related >> ones ... e.g. ability to flag message to some topic for central
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
>> not introduced to IOS yet. Maybe on other servers, I don't know ... > Hope to see it soon.
Yes, I would like too, if Carl could possibly drop a note here :-)
>>> It should be easy to add threading, though. But still, it wouldn't >>> be as accesible as a mailing list. >> > > You would need to be "in" to be "in" - use Rebol to some extent to be > able to get to the list, use something additionally to your mailer (I > guess nearly everyone with access to the web uses email).
So you comment your own words? ;-)
>> We just need to stabilise a bit. Some developers invest >> tens of hours into the stuff, as free time permits them to do so. They >> test, I test, I give a feedback. > > Could be a problem with my install - all my files are from around > july. They _are_ flagged as "not in sync" but that happens so often, I > don't pay much attention any more.
It should not happend. Why do you give up? Are you talking about Evaluation or Developer server. There is plenty of developers from here in the Developer server area and noone reporting problems like you describe ... Yes, if you have not logged for too long, it will take some time to sync-up once again, but that's what is syncing all about - to get to actual state of things ....
>> Romano and Cyphre can tell you, that I >> will not agree to something less than realtime. Said that, AltMe would
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
> I've seen some of the examples: I like it! It should be added to vid, > imo.
IMO too ... and we will propose resize system once again to RT .... cheers, -pekr-

 [12/14] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 22-Nov-2002 10:45


Hi Ingo, Pekr, Oldes
> > > On Cyphres styles, there's a remark to not spread them outside the > > > developers server - that's why I'm not really using them. Of course
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> > Who said that? > users/cyphre/style-set/readme.txt
It looks you are putting two different stuff into one bag ;-) Bu this is probably my mistake because the readme file you mentioned has not much informative value(although there is said you can contact me if you have any qustions ;-) ) As you can see from the IOS file path you mentioned above, this style-set is my personal user folder not in VID/prototype folder. I'm developing this style-set for one commercial project. I put in this *lot* of energy and free time so you cannot expect I'll release it for free public usage. I published this work on IOS to offer it to other developers for their commercial projects. So if you or anyone on IOS is interested in using it for a few shareware bucks just contact me privately. Also those people who will be actively betatesting this stuff could use it in their projects for a discount. For all who aren't on IOS but interested and willing to support my efforts you can see some screenshots here: http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/styles.jpg http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/styles2.jpg http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/styles3.jpg But his style-set is not that one I'm also doing for VID1.3 project which will be ofcourse free even when RT won't be interested in including the code in the upcomming Rebol/View release. There is also a possibility to make a Pro style-pack for a small shareware fee but only in case RT won't be interested to add it in the VID.
> > We just need to stabilise a bit. Some developers invest > > tens of hours into the stuff, as free time permits them to do so. They > > test, I test, I give a feedback. >
Yes, that's true....The only reason why all the style stuff is "hidden" on IOS is that all my work for VID project is still work in progress and I don't want to publish it before it will reach some state of quality to prevent future style usage incompatibilities among wide range of Rebol community...so please be patient...things are moving ;-) regards Cyphre

 [13/14] from: ingo:2b1 at: 22-Nov-2002 10:47


Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> Ingo Hohmann wrote: > > Hi Petr,
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> >> Ingo Hohmann wrote: > >>
<...>
> >> I am not so sure here... It is chat, not some "stupid" off-line ml. I > >> remember my heavy usage of IRC and threading in on-line chat would
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>
> Both system have its place here, but why should I explain it to > someone, who admits he "never chatted"? ;-))
Well, for me the offline usage and delayed mode of working are the big pros for an ml. Having to pay internet access by the minute does not encourage usage of chats. The one time I peeked into a chat, "stupid" seemed to be the word to describe the communication going on, seemed not to be worthwhile to try again.
> Well, I do remember few IRC sessions, moderated, where even Carl was > available. It was some big Amiga event, hundreds of ppl at IRC channel.
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> > Hope to see it soon. > Yes, I would like too, if Carl could possibly drop a note here :-)
Carl? Are you listening? ;-)
> >>> It should be easy to add threading, though. But still, it wouldn't > >>> be as accesible as a mailing list.
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> > guess nearly everyone with access to the web uses email). > So you comment your own words? ;-)
Yup, sometimes, if I later on think my previous words weren't all that clear - I'm not sure my comment was an improvement, though :-)
> >> We just need to stabilise a bit. Some developers invest > >> tens of hours into the stuff, as free time permits them to do so. They
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> take some time to sync-up once again, but that's what is syncing all > about - to get to actual state of things ....
Well, I'm syncing quite regularly at the moment, and I seem to get conference messages all right. But most of my files show the "not in sync" red. I renamed my 'developer dir this morning (A tip sent by Carl, at a time someone mentioned exactly the same problem) - after some time of syncing I had a look again, and I got "file is different locally" again. (I had "file is missing locally" before, so I guess the respective file had been synced, then. This is link 1.0.2.4.2, the latest I know about. Where should I look for up to date files? Kind regards, Ingo

 [14/14] from: rebol-list2:seznam:cz at: 23-Nov-2002 13:57


Hello Petr, Friday, November 22, 2002, 8:34:54 AM, you wrote: PK> Yes, it means something. I used "stupid", in quotes, as compare the PK> feeling one gets from being long time chat user vs long time ml user. PK> Both system have its place here, but why should I explain it to someone, PK> who admits he "never chatted"? ;-)) PK> Well, I do remember few IRC sessions, moderated, where even Carl was PK> available. It was some big Amiga event, hundreds of ppl at IRC channel. PK> Ppl are in-touch one with each other. But the experience comes, only if PK> you try it ... I can say that I was a long time advanced chat user as I was some time creator and administrator of one of the oldest MultiUserDungeon in the CzechRep. and so understand that I'm not so impressed with the IOS conference, but that's normal - I'm missing a lot of things event in IRCs channels (all these toys, emotions, whispering, shouting, yelling and different channels) --[ that reminds me that I could spend some time on the R-mud project again :] ML is different approach as you have more time to express your opinions and I don't see any reason why to continue in this 'bad-or-good' discussion, because the more comunication channels for Rebol dedicated discussions we will have, the better it will be.
>> Could be a problem with my install - all my files are from around >> july. They _are_ flagged as "not in sync" but that happens so often, I >> don't pay much attention any more.
PK> It should not happend. Why do you give up? Are you talking about PK> Evaluation or Developer server. There is plenty of developers from here PK> in the Developer server area and noone reporting problems like you PK> describe ... Yes, if you have not logged for too long, it will take some PK> time to sync-up once again, but that's what is syncing all about - to PK> get to actual state of things .... I didn't reported it but I have also problem with IOS - all older files are red since the last daylight saving. But looking into the Bug report list - it's reported with id 245 =( Oliva David )=======================( [oliva--david--seznam--cz] )== =( Earth/Europe/Czech_Republic/Brno )============================= =( coords: [lat: 49.22 long: 16.67] )=============================

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