RebGUI or GLayout
[1/17] from: gchillemi::aliceposta::it at: 12-Dec-2007 19:24
I whish to add some GUI to my software apart the basic VID. Which are the diffecences between the Two GUI system, which is your preferce ? Giuseppe Chillemi
[2/17] from: moliad::gmail::com at: 15-Dec-2007 1:12
hi Giuseppe, glayout is much less documented but harnesses, fixes and expands upon VID, whereas RebGui is a custom rewrite, but has more rigid display aspects. unless Rebgui has changed since last I looked at it, Glayout has a stronger (and very quick) layout engine, it also has a host of nifty functions to help you make your own styles (modal popups, are builtin, for easy contextual menues, for example). many compound styles can be built without actually needing to code the styles themselves, just by using the layout engine and filling controls in them. Glayout is 100% dynamic, and things like scroll panes are fully automated, support for non focused hierarchical scroll wheel event handling is part of the core, and some features like croppable gui snapshots, a few rebuilt requestors, a modal (usefull for debugging) code inspector using a macOS finder type engine are all built in. since its built over VID most of VID's appearance logic still applies (but none of its layout still does). things like stylesheets and all facets are still useable. the version on rebol.org really is out of date, if you need the newer version, I'll be happy to put it online within a few days. there is also integration with liquid through the use of a plugin, which I have used in commercial apps, (and demoed at the last devcon) which allow implicit computing and dataflow to be linked within the GUI at the dialect level! I have integrated some of henrik's VID stuff, just to see how easy it is to import advanced VID styles and it was pretty easy in fact. if you want to create your own styles, the api is very rich, including things like pre and post layout operations (allowing you to add/modify/remove controls before or after a layout), separate layout and size determination, there even is a facet automatition function which allows you to add facets to your styles without even needing to know how its handled internally by VID. again, a lot of this is not formally documented, but it should be fairly obvious if you know exactly what you want to do and I'll be happy to answer any questions and even help you if you have some specific needs to fill. The code is fairly documented though. -MAx (Glayout's author) PS: any support issues you might have, should be sent here. its the REBOL channel I currently follow and I really do read this list often. On Dec 12, 2007 1:24 PM, Giuseppe Chillemi <gchillemi-aliceposta.it> wrote:
[3/17] from: gchillemi::aliceposta::it at: 15-Dec-2007 13:48
> again, a lot of this is not formally documented, but it > should be fairly obvious if you know exactly what you want to > do and I'll be happy to answer any questions and even help > you if you have some specific needs to fill. > The code is fairly documented though. >
Max, you hit the point: I was going to choose RebGUI before you answer because the Glayout website seems that have been freezed 3 years ago and I have not found either updates nor enough documentation. In my mind I have tought "Another nice programmer and project gone before the release of Rebol 3". If you release the new version I will be happy to learn Bot RebGUI and Glayout in the next weeks and then make a final choice.
> -MAx (Glayout's author)
[4/17] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 16-Dec-2007 5:15
Max, enough, don't you think? I don't want to disappoint you, but you CAN'T compare Glayout to RebGUI, because imo you really don't deliver. Remarks like "being online in few days" are here for few years already, without any single app being built using your toolset delivered. Most ppl are imo confused by your terms and their cross meaning - slim, glayout, glass, etc. etc. I think that if you want to be fair to users, you first need to come up from the dark, and update your website, show some real stuff, because other than that, it is imo just pulling someone's leg ... Sorry to say that, but as we are close to R3 release, we really should change our attitude, and either we should to deliver, or stay silent .... Petr
[5/17] from: compkarori::gmail::com at: 16-Dec-2007 5:04
Pekr, You're mistaken. Most of the apps Max builds are commercial and so are never seen. But that does not mean the toolsets do not exist or work. For instance I use ReMark to build my Cheyenne websites, and ReMark is built with Glayout. Also, the library client is built with Glayout. Source is all available. It's simply less well known, and documented, and the original license of GPL was not IMHO the best of choices. On Dec 16, 2007 5:15 PM, Petr Krenzelok <petr.krenzelok-seznam.cz> wrote:
> Max, > > enough, don't you think? I don't want to disappoint you, but you CAN'T > compare Glayout to RebGUI, because imo you really don't deliver. Remarks > like "being online in few days" are here for few years already, without > any single app being built using your toolset delivered.
-- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsedirect.com Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system
[6/17] from: gregg::pointillistic::com at: 15-Dec-2007 22:45
Petr, Try to keep things objective, and be fair. Those who deliver, and deliver well, are the exception, not the rule. Ashley, Graham, Doc, Henrik, Dirk Weyand and some others inspire me by setting a high standard. Max has contributed a lot to the community, even if his stuff hasn't gained the visibility and support some others have. Not to mention, RebGUI and glayout are totally different beasts, with different goals. If you've used either of them, please do let others benefit from your experience, but there's no need to cast aspersions (especially at those working for free, on stuff that might benefit you). -- Gregg
[7/17] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 16-Dec-2007 10:47
> enough, don't you think? I don't want to disappoint you, but > you CAN'T compare Glayout to RebGUI, because imo you really
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>> show some real stuff, because other than that, it is imo just > pulling someone's leg ...
Petr, I don't agree with this attack. It is true that his site hasn't been update since a couple of years and this does not help the end user into approaching Glayout but I read this mailin list from a lot of time and Maxim is one of the senior contributor of the community. I consider him one of the Gurus of Rebol. I write here the same example I have written in AltMe: we have 2 sinkink ships (Both are the Rebol Project) in the first one people fight each other, in the second people cooperate. Which ship do you think will survive ? I suppose that Max has a personal time problem and he can't update his website and documentation but he has written "I will support you" and this is enough. If we want survive as group we must try to help him. Why don't we create a wikibook project to update the Glayout and the documentation ? This is the cooperation I am writing of.
> Sorry to say that, but as we are close to R3 release, we > really should change our attitude, and either we should to > deliver, or stay silent ....
Max Delivers and R3 is 1,5 years far from going out of beta. Too much for me to stay without a professional GUI system. I don't wont to loose such a good community programmer before R3 is ready. I want him on the ship (and I think the others and Carl itself as he has shown great apreciation at Devcon 2007 torwards Max and Glayout; you can read this on the devcon 2007 report) Giuseppe Chillemi
[8/17] from: petr::krenzelok::seznam::cz at: 16-Dec-2007 10:52
Gregg, what is the objectivity here? One user deciding what Gfx toolset to use. If I would be author of some toolkit, I would try being honest with others, and weight my possibilities. Because clearly - Glayout is imo not alternative to "typical" GUI app development. RebGUI is well documented, used by many, supported, and imo is right way to go with R2. I know Max for all those years and I know he is kind of innovative guy creating close-to-science stuff. But - if some user is weighting alternatives, in fact my "warning" message could be fair to that user, while maybe not being all that fair to Max. It is always easier to write how my own tool is better in various single aspects than the other tool. If you write it that way, you might let others with the impression, that you can't live without that stuff and you wait for upper layers as Glass for 4 or so years already? So - at some point in the past, I stopped to do it. I stopped to suggest R2 to new users, after one rather bad experience with unfinished VID. Because what seemed "cool and easy" on the surface, turned into frustration of unsupported product and we all remember it. Now with RebGUI I contanted that user once again, just asking him to look into it. He's now partly back using REBOL, but asking me not doing it once again - hyping some stuff, which "can't deliver". That hurted our image most. So what I suggest is not to stop development for Max, but rather being realistic with promisses to "new" users .... Petr
[9/17] from: gchillemi::aliceposta::it at: 16-Dec-2007 15:58
> what is the objectivity here? One user deciding what Gfx > toolset to use.
<<quoted lines omitted: 12>>> impression, that you can't live without that stuff and you > wait for upper layers as Glass for 4 or so years already?
Petr, I am here to understand the varius points of view and make a choice. Your statements let me understand that Glayout upper level (STEEL as I have understood) is far from being complete and the other modules of steel (Liquid, SLIM and SLIM linker, to me the most important of the trio seems Liquid) are in this situation too. As I am in the Rebol world since a lot of time, I have read and respect Max but also I have seen that his site and (maybe) the project is stopped since july 2004. I have made a couple of scenarios about the real situation: - Glayout and Steel are going on but the developer has its how problem and lack of time to complete the web site. - Glayout and steel are stopped and it would be dangerous to use this software in my projects. The second scenario is the worst case and I would totally discard his software. The first one requires a deeper evalutation. My point of view is made of: functionality of his system for my purpose, documentation and support the end user are the basic requirement to adopt Glayout and the other steel tools in my project. Functionalities: Glayout is a Stylesheet system used to arrange and display VID styles (Excuse me if I use wrong terminology), resize windows and rearrange the GUI lements. It extends VID in some ways but one must is and expert programmer to add other components. Liquid syncronizes VID with the inner data displayed. The other parts of steel have no use for me. RebGUI instead replaces VID and offers new "Styles". If I need "only" resizing, data syncronizing, stylesheets, modal menus and VID has everything Steel/Glayout/Liquid is the way to go (the discussion about documentation and support remains open). Otherwise RebGUI is the way to go. I want to forget Rebol 3 has I have already written. When it will be ready I'll look at its implementation. I won't ask the question about why Glayout has not been adopted in Rebol3 despite the fact I am onlooker. Howerver I whish to congratulate with Max for his work now that I know more and hope (but probably won't) extend the documentation and update his site. There is still _AT LEAST_ one and half year before we will have a stable R3 and guy system and STEEL would be a treasure in a drawer if it is usable but not documented. A last note: if developers had worked together creating RebGUI + Steel/Glayout probably we would have now a really powerfull GUI System. Hope the future will see many cooperative projects than developers working alone. Giuseppe Chillemi
[10/17] from: moliad:g:mail at: 20-Dec-2007 1:21
[11/17] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 20-Dec-2007 14:24
Maxim Olivier-Adlhoch napsal(a):
> wow! > such passion... and Glayout is at the core of all the dilemma :-)
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>> -------- > I'll start by saying that I'm not in any way under any sense of "attack".
I am glad to hear that. You know me and I know you. But anyway, taky my appology, I should not start my email by "Enough already?" remark, that sounded probably rather harsh. As I have some 10 minutes to answer at max, I will try to keep my reply short. First and foremost - nothing is as important as personal health. I was close to such state too - the more I worked, the more energy I felt I have available. Worked 2 months from 8:00 am to 23:00 pm. Then I was saved by illness, was totally exhausted, but physically OK. But - two persons close to me, had not such luck. And one of them recovered from total burn-out for more than 2 years. I could not recognise him. I once asked - what do you feel? Why are you not trying to have more fun? And the answer was really depressing for me - "I feel I don't have energy even to smile, let alone having fun". So, I wish you relaxed time with your family. Now to some of your remarks (mentioning your product twice already, so your marketing might work actually :-) : - it is not absolutly true I haven't followed your development precisely. To be honest, I visited your pages nearly on monthly basis. But your development often followed one scenario - available soon, then you kind of disappeared for months with any info. Those kind of jokes went thru AltME too. But that is not important now, when your tools are available. - what is more important imo is, proper explanation and some real-life stuff to show, at least screenshots. They came lately, but explanation on your website is quite vague. In fact I think that what you have written here should just be cut off from this email and put to your website as kind of "Overview" page - really nice description :-) - I know some guys used 'slim for quite some time, I know about 'glayout usage, and I know about DevCon. I was not there (because of change of my jobs after 12 years, so I really could not come this year), but videos and altme were available. My conclusion is, that while you have cool stuff available, I am maybe too dumb to take it, and use it in rather sensible way. And I think that I might represent average REBOL and upon average IT knowledges. So, either I am dubm alone, or there is another supportive argument to try to better explain, what you have available, and how it could be used. - from points I mentioned above, that is why I mentioned RebGUI is better alternative. Not that it would not have its own bugs, like you write, but because it imo can be more easily followed by "average" REBOLler, is properly documented and more or less still supported and being maintained. Sometimes simply the best tool is not "best". We all know it from REBOL situation itself. I think REBOL is superior in some aspects, yet it is not succesfull yet. The answers lays IMO mainly in how things are (not) communicated. So as for R3, I know already that RT cares very much, on how to change the situation. It can be seen even from R3 block diagram itself - it frees RT's hands and allows for faster and more transparent development, sharing, etc. What I warn us from is to be dishonest, make impossible promisses, etc. I think that ppl will accept few months delay if properly communicated, rather than not knowing what is going on, what could they expect, etc. - users simply should feel "safe" about the tool in the first place imo. So much for my marketing-wanna-be thoughts :-) Cheers, Petr
[12/17] from: fergus4:bellatlantic at: 21-Dec-2007 7:54
I have looked at Glayout many times but like Petr I was never able to grasp its full potential. Descriptions on the web site are a little over my head and I could not find any good examples of it in use. I always felt it was a powerful tool but I was a bit intimidated by it so I never tried to apply it to any of my projects. Perhaps I will put some time into examining it further. Alan Macleod
[13/17] from: jf:allie:g:mail at: 21-Dec-2007 14:17
By the way, Has anybody done a columnar file browser (like in OS X) in VID, RebGui or Glayout that they would be wiling to share ? thanks, jf
[14/17] from: gregg:pointillistic at: 21-Dec-2007 13:04
Hi Jean-François, JFA> Has anybody done a columnar file browser (like in OS X) in VID, JFA> RebGui or Glayout that they would be wiling to share ? I haven't done one in RebGUI or Glayout, but I did something like it a long time ago in VID. It's an object browser, for the REBOL system, not a file system browser; and the code is *very* old, so probably not much you could gain from it. I would be happy to send it, if you think it would be better than nothing. My guess is that starting fresh in your GUI system of choice would be better. :\ -- Gregg
[15/17] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 22-Dec-2007 0:55
> I have stopped coding in general as a hobby after the > devcon, for many personal reasons...
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>> said, elixir and remark development has continued a bit and > is about to resume in much more vigor in a (very) short while.
I have written and repeated in this mailing list that either Rebol Tech and people in the Rebol community are humans with their own needing and problems. Your experience and health problem (I am afraid, I know about Burn-out and Depression for personal reasons) show clearly that we must consider our community and Carl as part of a group. We must use the best practice to avoid fighting and cooperate to be stronger, help each other and be a solid foundation for the whole Rebol project and for building strong personal relationships. It is now 22 years I am in the computer business. I started when I was twelve and now I am thirty tree and I have seen a lot of projects and companies going up and down, disappearing or resisting in this world. The worst part of my experience was seeing people leaving communities and abandoning very good project they have started because personal factor accurred: depressions, lack of motivation, bad response from some people in the community... It is really important to me to see the people from the human point of view to keep them high, healthy, motivated and happy to be part of something bigger. I have written about attacks against Rebol Tech that we should not consider it a company but a group of persons. What about if they loose the motivation and give up the development of rebol ? I think that Carl would have all the reasons to give up Rebol if he considered its economic side or considering the diffusion of his language. We must do our best to support him, even in his errors like giving us dates he can't maintain. Rebol Tech is not a giant company where developers are only numbers and when one is gone another 2 are there as replacement. It is Carl, Gabriele, you and other developers giving their best to glue together this project, their personal life, their personal economy and so on. You are too an example of these words: it's me who called you a Guru and I consider you this way as some other people around there. You have good projects but you are an human and you have your own limits. Instead of attacking you it would be better to cooperate with you and your project. This is what I call "the positive spirit of the community".
> -STEEL: > -SLIM:
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>> liquidGL(unreleased publicly): > remark:
They are a golden treasures. I would like to see them hosted on sourceforge and people cooperating into merging LIST-VIEW and RebGui together with your projects. You have written it is possible. I write: why don't people cooperate ?
> TO GIUSEPPE:
It's me !
> ------- > thank you for the genuine and honest interest. I will upload > the latest version of all of my stuff for you on REBOL.org > tomorrow, and I will add liquidGL and glob too.
I'll download them shortly and start studing them.
> I think doing all of the support on this list will be the > best way to raise awareness. This should have been done > every time a user wanted (or has) used it, in order to show > some "activity" about it... now I know.
> Your idea about a wikibook is excellent. I would contribute > to it, if you can get it setup and are willing to add to it
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>> external application... this makes documentation of any > GLayout driven application or tutorial dead easy!
I will develop the project as soon as the new year starts.
> We can also use remark, which is infact much like a wiki > dilalect concept, but extensible and scriptable (outside of > the page). Pages contain only content, and all the page and > site stuff is added on the fly, even the menus are programatic.
Please, could you point me to the Remark project so I could start to learn it ?
> Today I feel like I've been given a > measure of recognition, and during my resting period, nothing > could be better for my (mental) healing.
Stay away as much as you need. As I have written I know the problem and sometime happens that the person involved won't come back into the places and projects were the problem arised. Hope this won't be the situation but if it will be it has been nice to have you here and I will be happy to know you are having fun elsewere.
> have fun!
Have fun you too. Giuseppe Chillemi
[16/17] from: moliad::gmail at: 21-Dec-2007 22:18
Hi Gregg, hehe, there is already such a system browser in glayout. its basic, but its very usefull since it opens up modal, and can be used as a debugger, since you give it a starting point manually. it browses any rebol value. It would probably be quite easy to refactor it as a file browser tough. IIRC, its listing capabilites are replaceable, so we could probably make a special mode which expects file values, and lists dirs and maybe even gives info about files and loads ascii files. -MAx On Dec 21, 2007 3:04 PM, Gregg Irwin <gregg-pointillistic.com> wrote:
[17/17] from: moliad:gma:il at: 21-Dec-2007 23:18
On Dec 21, 2007 6:55 PM, Giuseppe Chillemi <gchillemi-aliceposta.it> wrote:
> It is now 22 years I am in the computer business. I started when I was > twelve and now I am thirty tree and I have seen a lot of projects and > companies going up and down, disappearing or resisting in this world.
hehe a lot like me started at 8, (am now 32) :-)
> The > worst part of my experience was seeing people leaving communities and > abandoning very good project they have started because personal factor > accurred: depressions, lack of motivation, bad response from some people > in > the community...
yep... giving stuff is fun, but when its not well received (for ANY reason) its tough to find motivation to continue doing so frequently. for example, some of my stuff is pretty advanced, and there are quickstarts on the net...but very few people have asked specific questions... so will I try and write more documentation... why? people don't seem to remember that writing docs is 3 times more time consuming than coding. -one line for each line of code which explains what and why -another for how (specs, refs, etc) -another for when (examples, tutorials) It is really important to me to see the people from the human point of view
> to keep them high, healthy, motivated and happy to be part of something > bigger.
I agree. You are too an example of these words: it's me who called you a Guru and I
> consider you this way as some other people around there. You have good > projects but you are an human and you have your own limits. Instead of
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>> > remark: > They are a golden treasures.
> I would like to see them hosted on sourceforge
there might be something on the way which is rebol specific... I won't say more... not everything is going on in the spotlight. and people cooperating into merging LIST-VIEW and RebGui together with your
> projects. You have written it is possible. I write: why don't people > cooperate ?
RebGui and VID don't cooperate very well, they are separate engines, but henrik's stuff is VID based. he and I have spoken, but time considerations makes these cooperations harder to track sometimes. each revision of one or the other, may break the interrelating apis... so unless there is actual demand, for actual projects, which someone really is putting time into, they stay as "fun" projects.
> > TO GIUSEPPE: > It's me !
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>> > tomorrow, and I will add liquidGL and glob too. > I'll download them shortly and start studing them.
Sorry, I was not able to put my stuff online. I had a bit of spare time yesterday, but then, (murphy's law) my heating broke down, so I had to put my evening fixing that instead (its -15C in Montreal, Canada these days, with 45cm of snow already!) I'll do my best to find a bit of time to at least put glayout and liquid's latest versions online, and will add liquidGL too. sometime during the week-end.
> I will develop the project as soon as the new year starts. >
cool, after new year, my schedule is freeing itself up so I'll be in a good position to give you quick help and support, even quick fixes when you need them. :-)
> We can also use remark, which is infact much like a wiki > dilalect concept, but extensible and scriptable (outside of > the page). Pages contain only content, and all the page and > site stuff is added on the fly, even the menus are programatic.
Please, could you point me to the Remark project so I could start to learn
> it ?
remark is fully documented (reference wise) ... on the steel site. http://www.pointillistic.com/open-REBOL/moa/steel/retools/remark/index.html just as an example of how documentation isn't always the boon it is reported as being hehehe. but again, any issues, questions to get you started... ask away :-)
> > Today I feel like I've been given a > > measure of recognition, and during my resting period, nothing
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>> know > you are having fun elsewere.
oh, don't worry, all of my REBOL code is my life work, it stems from an architecture I envisioned when I was 18... darn... already 14 years ago this december! I'm not about to let it die :-) All of these tools are wrapped up into some greater scheme which has started to take shape. so, I'll do my best to put things up online (on rebol.org for now). you (or any one else) can always ask questions at any time. I just spoke to Graham, and have agreed to take a chance at building some form of progressive tutorial. I'll use GLayout for starters, and we'll see where that takes us. I'd do my best at making one step per week or two. user feedback will definitely increase the longevity and frequency of the project, so if any of you have any queries, ideas, suggestions, PLEASE shoot them my way (on this list). ciao! -MAx
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