[1/10] from: grantwparks:yah:oo at: 24-Sep-2000 19:37
Puh-lease! I subscribed to this list to learn REBOL from those of you who are so well-versed in it and have explored very advanced topics with it. But more and more, I have to wade through 20+ postings regarding opinions on marketing, open-source, comparison of platforms (each with lots of 'proof' to back it up), etc, to find one posting with some programming information. Notwithstanding that there are good points being made, there is also way too much unresolvable opposing philosophies; sort of like talking religion or politics - and you know where that gets you. I'm not saying limit it strictly to coding questions and examples, because I think discussions on collaborative efforts to build a few killer apps is fruitful, but maybe there should be another list for all the discussions about what RT 'should' do. I am simply happy to have such a language which is so new and different and powerful. I mean no offense, but how many of us who are so smart about what RT needs to do to be successful could have done what they've done? It's human nature to look at what exists and see 'what's missing' or how things should be, but that angle becomes fruitless when it degenerates into long historical justifications. I realize this has been somewhat of a rant, and let me reiterate that I learned a lot from the list in its earlier days, but it has become not very useful in the past few weeks. Can we get back to being more on-topic? Respectfully (and I mean that), Grant
[2/10] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 25-Sep-2000 6:44
> Puh-lease! I subscribed to this list to learn REBOL > from those of you who are so well-versed in it and
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>> back it up), etc, to find one posting with some > programming information.
I don't defend comparison of platforms, but with bad marketing, you can kill the product sooner than later. I offered RT to set-up separate ml for those interesting to discuss marketing etc. issues, but guess if I got reply to my email? ;-/
> Notwithstanding that there > are good points being made, there is also way too much
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>> how many of us who are so smart about what RT needs to > do to be successful could have done what they've done?
If you say something like that, then you always very cleverly block ppl from having right to their own opinion ...
> It's human nature to look at what exists and see > 'what's missing' or how things should be, but that
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>> past few weeks. Can we get back to being more > on-topic?
Maybe we would like to be, but as for me - I can't. What do you use/want to use REBOL for? Some of us needs to know at least something about directions, and that mean even marketing. You know what? - do you think the discussion would be occuring if RT would answer at least basic questions? I just wonder how many ppl actually ordered /Command not even remotely knowing, what does the licence agreeement look like .... -pekr-
[3/10] from: gschwarz:netconnect:au at: 25-Sep-2000 15:47
I strongly agree. Greg Grant wrote,
[4/10] from: webdev:accglobal at: 25-Sep-2000 1:21
You read my mind! SNR is definitely swinging into the negative numbers. All things being equal I would like to take this opportunity to express my humble gratitude to those that have answered my questions (as well as those of others) so expeditiously and with such charity. On the flip side... Although some of you are perhaps very clever and capable individuals I think you are pissing in the wind. Such pursuits have their own cathartic merits, but might I mention the rest of us are getting little wet about now. And no doubt we all have heard the familiar chant that "If wishes were horses beggars would ride". And perhaps if Jules Verne were an engineer rather than a visionary writer he would have hung himself out of frustration, attempting to cobble his dreams in the wrong century. Any fool can turn a house into a pile of stones but its far rarer to find a man who can turn a pile of stones into a house. If Carl and company can build a house then the least we can do is mix the mortar without too much water and sand. Need I say more? I remain respectfully yours, [webdev--accglobal--net]
[5/10] from: news:ted:husted at: 25-Sep-2000 6:57
> I'm not saying limit it strictly to coding questions and examples,
because I think discussions on collaborative efforts to build a few killer apps is fruitful, but maybe there should be another list for all the discussions about what RT 'should' do. I also strongly agree. Realistically, there whould be a list for for each package (/CORE, /VIEW, /COMMAND, and the Apache list), along with Advocacy (convert ALLY?). -Ted. Of course, realistically, there should also be a bug-list and knowledgebase.
[6/10] from: joel:neely:fedex at: 25-Sep-2000 7:52
Hi, Grant! [grantwparks--yahoo--com] wrote:
> ... I'm not saying limit it strictly to coding > questions and examples, because I think discussions on > collaborative efforts to build a few killer apps is > fruitful, but maybe there should be another list for > all the discussions about what RT 'should' do. >
Am I the only one who caught the irony here? A post that asserts that there's too much discussion "about what RT 'should' do" contains the suggestion that "there should be another list"! As RT is hosting the mailing list, this suggestion provides another thing RT "should" do! ;-)
> I am simply happy to have such a language which is so > new and different and powerful. >
I am happy to have REBOL, as well. However, the traffic on this list has always included suggestions for what RT could/should do to make the language more powerful, or at least more responsive to people's specific needs. Some of these issues (e.g., compiling to byte-code or other non-source form) have to do BOTH with the technical capabilities of the language, AND with RT policy and long-term plans. Members of this list should be able to express themselves on such issues, as they ultimately affect us all. Some of the members of this list have expended much- greater-than-average effort toward REBOL advocacy, a subject that ultimately affects all of us -- wider usage of REBOL translates into less risk of losing a language of which we are all fond. But taking an advocacy position causes one to have a greater need to understand the answer to "Whither REBOL?" Some of the components of this question (e.g., long-term pricing and product stragegies, including definitions of future products) are more about the position RT wishes to occupy in the computing industry than about technical details, but there is still SOME overlap. Members of this list (especially the ones who are taking publicly visible positions of REBOL advocacy or who are trying to drive behind-the-scenes decisions that affect REBOL adpotion) should be able to ask that question, and be able to express opinions regarding the relative merits of various possible answers, as this question affects us all. My experience has been that reading (or participating in) the discussions of all of the above usually forces me to clarify my own thoughts and introduces me to ideas of others that I would never have had on my own. YMMV.
> I mean no offense, but how many of us who are so smart > about what RT needs to do to be successful could have > done what they've done? >
I mean no offense either, but REBOL has reached a point in its life where the visible part of "what they've done" thus far probably has less to do with the long-term viability of REBOL as a professional programming language than what they're going to do next -- and that's not just technical in nature. RT has been very patient with a wide range of suggestions and discussions (technical or otherwise) on this list. The "old hands" on this list have been very patient with suggestions, discussions, and questions (mostly technical and elementary) from the new/newer/newest members (which includes me). I suggest that we all have patience with discussions which may not interest all of us equally, but which are usually important to the participants. In the extreme case, I find the Subject: header a valuable clue as to whether I want to invest time in reading a post. OBTW, I also agree that, beyond a certain point, beating a dead horse is not only unproductive, but downright disgusting!!! (Unless, of course, you're tenderizing horse steaks! ;-) -jn-
[7/10] from: capolunghi::att::com at: 25-Sep-2000 11:16
Perhaps what's needed is a new ['JustcodeList--rebol--com'] Maybe that would do it. Joe
[8/10] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 25-Sep-2000 17:39
----- Original Message ----- From: <[capolunghi--att--com]> To: <[list--rebol--com]> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 5:16 PM Subject: [REBOL] ENOUGH already Re:
> Perhaps what's needed is a new ['JustcodeList--rebol--com'] Maybe that would
I would dare to suggest to take it easy and don't complicate the situation :-) Or just implement 'just-code-list plug-in for rebmail project, with syntax hilighting etc. stuff ;-) Cheers, -pekr-
[9/10] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 25-Sep-2000 10:11
Thanks for bringing this up Grant. Since this list is not threaded, we all have to put up with painfully uninteristing/border line off topic posts from time to time. I will try to keep a closer eye on what I post. Hopefully there will be a better way soon to conduct our discussions. A big tick for threaded discussion list. --Ryan Ryan Cole Programmer Analyst www.iesco-dms.com 707-468-5400 I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. -Einstein
[10/10] from: brett:codeconscious at: 26-Sep-2000 15:31
The number of "painfully uninteristing/border line off topic posts" that I've seen on this list is close to zero, so obviously your definition of off topic is different from mine. This list represents a community of people, obviously with a variety of goals, who are interested in Rebol not just programs. RT's description of this list: "General Discussion List This is an open, unmoderated discussion list for REBOL developers. It provides a constant flow of information, examples, and opinions. ..." This list is also represents an unofficial flow of information back to RT, who have demonstrated their interest in the ideas and contributions of the participants on this list. I'd rather someone start a thread on a topic they are interested in than winge that others are not talking about that person's pet topics. If there are enough sub-groups fine. Manage it with constructive suggestions/action rather than complain. Brett.
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