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View "Skinz" Contest

 [1/23] from: tbrownell:shaw:ca at: 22-Feb-2002 13:00


Hello all. Rebol Brown Syndrome. def. - Using the default View 'Rebol Brown' face color for everything because it's just so darn easy. I'd like to address this problem with a little contest of my own. What I purpose is creating a View Media Player that is skinnable (?) and then having a contest for the best skins. This'll show off the potential of the graphics side of view, and make a darn cool player as well. So first we need some mp3 guts. I would imagine there's a mp3 player API out there somewhere? Any ideas, suggestions or comments (positive or neg) are appreciated. TBrownell

 [2/23] from: alanwall:sonic at: 22-Feb-2002 15:39


At 01:00 PM 2/22/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Hello all. >"Rebol Brown Syndrome." def. - Using the default View 'Rebol Brown' face
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
>out there somewhere? >Any ideas, suggestions or comments (positive or neg) are appreciated.
Would love to see that.Try stardock.com and look at their SDplayer.It's small and works well

 [3/23] from: ammonjohnson:yaho:o at: 23-Feb-2002 17:47


Looking for Skins? Check WorldWideReb(WWR)/Etienne/tools/skins2 (I think, I haven't been able to browse the WWR for sometime now, my ISP is giving me trouble.) BTW this is some awesome work that Etienne has produced, & any Reblets that I produce will use it, I recomend it as a standard to be adopted be the REBOL community. Enjoy!! Ammon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Brownell" <[tbrownell--shaw--ca]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:00 PM Subject: [REBOL] View "Skinz" Contest
> Hello all. > > "Rebol Brown Syndrome." def. - Using the default View 'Rebol Brown' face
color for everything because it's just so darn easy.
> I'd like to address this problem with a little contest of my own. > > What I purpose is creating a View Media Player that is skinnable (?) and
then having a contest for the best skins. This'll show off the potential of the graphics side of view, and make a darn cool player as well.

 [4/23] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 24-Feb-2002 6:23


Ammon Johnson wrote:
>Looking for Skins? Check WorldWideReb(WWR)/Etienne/tools/skins2 (I think, I >haven't been able to browse the WWR for sometime now, my ISP is giving me >trouble.) BTW this is some awesome work that Etienne has produced, & any >Reblets that I produce will use it, I recomend it as a standard to be >adopted be the REBOL community. >
And I recommend it as a standard for Rebol at all. RT should definitely look how proper styles should behave, as I really can't understand, how they can release IOS with semi-functional text-list (does not adjust scroll-bar) and area (does not provide any scroll bar, other small problems), and other inconsistencies ... The thing is that someone here can suggest me to adapt styles if I want. But well - properly working standard styles collection is above all imo. It is not good when products are released before some kind of standardisation happen. Later changes mean compatibility problems ... As for Etienne's styles, I found them slow on slower machines, what is your opinion on that? And - if you would like to get ppl using it, it would have to provide really easy integration into scripts ... -pekr-

 [5/23] from: carl:cybercraft at: 24-Feb-2002 20:48


On 24-Feb-02, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> The thing is that someone here can suggest me to adapt styles if I > want. But well - properly working standard styles collection is > above all imo. It is not good when products are released before some > kind of standardisation happen. Later changes mean compatibility > problems ...
Indeed, and especially so for distributed computing. Just protecting your REBOL words can stop others' scripts from running, never mind re-writing VID.
> As for Etienne's styles, I found them slow on slower machines, what > is your opinion on that?
I've not had much of a look at them, but good styles should allow you to chose a style that suites your system. Graphic-heavy and with plenty of effects if your system can handle it, or plain and simple if not. I don't think people should be forced to use specific skins with specific scripts, though obviously defaults should be allowed.
> And - if you would like to get ppl using > it, it would have to provide really easy integration into scripts > ...
Ideally the script writer shouldn't need to think about skins unless they want to, the choice of which to use for any particular script really being the user's job. -- Carl Read

 [6/23] from: ptretter:charter at: 24-Feb-2002 10:04


I also noticed that Etienne's styles were a bit slow and thats on a 600 Athlon Fic SD11 board with a voodoo5 graphics card. Paul Tretter

 [7/23] from: etienne:alaurent:free at: 25-Feb-2002 0:32


Hi all, I noticed the View "Skinz" Contest. It's a very good idea indeed :-) 2 remarks : -1) Don't forget that winamp is for Window$. Many people don't use Window$ but Apple or Linux or others OS with View. If you want to make an Mp3 player for everybody, you can't do this specially for Window$ OS. -2) About my skins : yes, I built skins for View. Everybody can use them for any app. But it was a test. The code is not optimized, can contain bugs, is slow on slower machines (especially complex widgets), and will not run with the next View version (this version will be derived from IOS with better graphical support, I presume). The net update is not optimal (the best approach is to implement a sharing file system, with file replication, like in IOS => this could be an interesting contest). Other thing, I would like to see different implementations for skinning, because I think other people could have other good ideas. Try for instance the FX5 skin, the Dockimbel's Winskin, ... -- regards. --- Etienne

 [8/23] from: rebol665:ifrance at: 25-Feb-2002 8:34


Hi The FX5 site (both HTML or RebSite) seams out of order (impossible to test anything). Patrick

 [9/23] from: philb:upnaway at: 25-Feb-2002 17:19


Hi Patrick, its working for me .... now: 25-Feb-2002 at 09:15:29 (I am now behind a firewall though) The skins work well in the demo. Cheers Phil === Original Message === Hi The FX5 site (both HTML or RebSite) seams out of order (impossible to test anything). Patrick

 [10/23] from: tbrownell:shaw:ca at: 25-Feb-2002 3:40


Winamp is for Windows and Mac. It's true that 'many' people use windows, but I don't know how you can make an Mp3 player for view without multiplying the effort times the number of OS's people use/want. And I'll explain why it's a waste of time trying... <The "Why use Winamp" rant...> I personally couldn't care less what OS I use, as long as it does what I want to some degree of consistancy. I've been using computers since high school in 1975. We had an IBM with a one line led display for the output, and which required punching (marking with a pencil) cards, lining up behind 30 other students, feeding them through a reader, then approaching the teacher to help 'debug' your 40 line/40 cards BASIC program, only to find you marked "qrint" instead of "print". My first computer was an Atari 800 with with 8Kb of ram (upgradeable to a max of 16Kb for something like $400 1976 dollars... about $2000 today dollars :) which used a cassette tape deck for saving/loading your program. Took 15 minutes or more to load the simplest program. I still remember when the first HD's came out, 5MB! That was just incredible. Who would ever fill a 5mb hard drive??? And they cost, if I recall, $5000. Yes, $5000 for 5mb. Then I got a Commodore 64 (64Kb ram) and the rest is history, with my latest acquistion being 1Ghz laptop. I've seen it all as far as desktop/PC computing goes. And frankly, this whole "my OS is better than your OS" spew is tiring. I don't care. I couldn't care less if MS went under tomorrow, or if it became the only OS out there. Frankly, I never cared about Apple one iota. They sold nice, incredibly expensive PC's that no average person could afford. If Apple had a cheap clone back in those days, there would'nt be an MS today. Now they, Apple, have 2.3% of the market. 2.3 PERCENT? Who are these people? All I care about is "What are people using today?" and what OS should I make software for first? So, to answer that question lets turn to the facts... Here's a great site to do just that called "Geeks with Guns" http://geekswithguns.com/index.html According to these stats, the Windows OS counts for 94.3%, Mac at 2.3%, Linux 2% and Unix 0.3% with all the rest at 1.0% Someone earlier complained about a floating frame on my website. Floating frames are cool, but only work with IE, and considering that IE counts for 93% of all browsers out there, I'm willing, at this time, to abandon the 7% of the rest. Then there's one more reason for Netscape users to abandon it. At this time, for better or worse, Microsoft is the defacto standard. If you are creating software for any other OS, you have seriously gimped your market share. (Unless your creating something that is lacking in the other OS, of which there is plenty... including Winamp) This is not about which OS is better, this is about why even you, yes you.. are using MS products. And don't tell me you don't, cause the numbers speak for themselves. Oops, I'm mistaken. In a room with 1000 'average' computer users, 23 are Mac users, 20 Linux, 3 Unix and 10 everything else. And I'll bet you my Windows 2000 OS that the flames I receive on this post won't be from the 944 Windows users. So, why use Winamp? Why not. <end rant, have a nice day> TB PS - Windows XP sucks. Don't know about Linux, haven't used it... probably sucks too.

 [11/23] from: etienne:alaurent:free at: 25-Feb-2002 18:57


Hi, Oh, oh ... Really, I don't care to know witch OS is better than one other. For now, I'm using Linux, witch is good for me. For other people, I don't know, and I don't want to know ;-) Simply, what I would like to say is : Rebol is running on many systems. It's a pity that people without Windows could not use a good rebol app because this app uses a Windows API. (sorry for my poor english :-() Terry Brownell wrote:
> Winamp is for Windows and Mac. It's true that 'many' people use >windows, but I don't know how you can make an Mp3 player for view without
<<quoted lines omitted: 91>>
>>subject, without the quotes. >>
-- regards. --- Etienne

 [12/23] from: logoreb:yah:oo at: 25-Feb-2002 11:01


Support for the Ogg Vorbis codec would be a nice feature for RT to add to View/Pro. It's high-quality, patent-free, open source and supported by players (via plugin) on multiple platforms. <http://www.vorbis.com/index.psp> <http://www.webtechniques.com/archives/2002/02/stratrevu/> Dreaming out loud... -- Ed --- Terry Brownell <[tbrownell--shaw--ca]> wrote:

 [13/23] from: ammonjohnson::yahoo at: 25-Feb-2002 16:12


----- Original Message ----- From: "Petr Krenzelok" <[petr--krenzelok--trz--cz]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 10:23 PM Subject: [REBOL] Re: View "Skinz" Contest
> And I recommend it as a standard for Rebol at all. RT should definitely > look how proper styles should behave, as I really can't understand, how > they can release IOS with semi-functional text-list (does not adjust > scroll-bar) and area (does not provide any scroll bar, other small > problems), and other inconsistencies ... >
Standards are important. I have been trying to put together an IOS Server to create a community much like the SourceForge.com community as a compliment to RIDE, but even RIDE is going slow now, I need to find another VC, which I may be able to come up with, I have some good possibilities.
> The thing is that someone here can suggest me to adapt styles if I want. > But well - properly working standard styles collection is above all imo. > It is not good when products are released before some kind of > standardisation happen. Later changes mean compatibility problems ... >
I agree here, & I have looked deeply at Etienne's system. My own evaluation of it is that it is very worthy of being made the standard! It is simple to use, & only has 3(?) words in the Global Namespace. It is designed in a manner that will allow for a simple update to one file in order to maintain optimum compatibility, you as the developer, or end-user shouldn't have to do anything, but be connected to the internet to have it update for compatibility to new versions of View.
> As for Etienne's styles, I found them slow on slower machines, what is > your opinion on that? And - if you would like to get ppl using it, it > would have to provide really easy integration into scripts ...
I didn't notice them being too slow on a PIII 600 with 256MB Ram, but as he has said the system is not optimised for performance yet. Let the crowd approve, & I am sure that he will take the time to optimize. ;-)) Enjoy!! Ammon

 [14/23] from: tbrownell::shaw::ca at: 25-Feb-2002 16:05

Re: About View "Skinz" Contest Ogg Vorbis


> Support for the Ogg Vorbis codec would be a nice.
Would be. I notice they have a Winamp plugin. The Ogg site also mentions FreeAmp.org, an opensource audioplayer for Windows and Linux... If anyone wants to have a go at that, we'll use it instead. TB

 [15/23] from: atruter:hih:au at: 26-Feb-2002 12:05

Re: About View "Skinz" Contest


Since no-one else seems to have taken the bait ;) <SNIP>Winamp is for Windows and Mac. It's true that 'many' people use windows, but I don't know how you can make an Mp3 player for view without multiplying the effort times the number of OS's people use/want. And I'll explain why it's a waste of time trying...</SNIP> The "browse" command is an example of a good way to invoke an external service without regard to OS or utility provider. Perhaps a "play" command . . . <SNIP>I couldn't care less if MS went under tomorrow, or if it became the only OS out there. Frankly, I never cared about Apple one iota. They sold nice, incredibly expensive PC's that no average person could afford. If Apple had a cheap clone back in those days, there would'nt be an MS today. Now they, Apple, have 2.3% of the market. 2.3 PERCENT? Who are these people?</SNIP> I use Windows and *nix and plan on getting an iMac. I like having a choice as to what hardware, OS and software I purchase, use and develop for. Note that "cheap" PC's are an illusion. Each category of component changes regularly on a 6 month cycle with most consumers "compelled" to upgrade after falling a generation or two behind. Add to this the cost of versioning whereby most software vendors encourage you to upgrade software every two years or so. It always amazes me how much someone actually pays to write a document on a PC (the most commonly quoted reason for having a PC). Did the upgrade from Win95 to Win98 to WinME to Win2000 to WinXP with the matching office upgrades from Office95 to Office97 to Office2000 to OfficeXP really enable a document to be written any faster / better? What is the true cost of each document? (total cost of upgrades divided by actual number of documents written). <SNIP>All I care about is "What are people using today?" and what OS should I make software for first?</SNIP> Which people? If I'm writting software for puiblishing or multi-media folks I'd want to make sure it runs on a Mac. Server software better run on *nix. Client side software better run on Windows. Different strokes for different folks. <SNIP>So, to answer that question lets turn to the facts... Here's a great site to do just that called "Geeks with Guns" http://geekswithguns.com/index.html According to these stats, the Windows OS counts for 94.3%, Mac at 2.3%, Linux 2% and Unix 0.3% with all the rest at 1.0%</SNIP> I hope this wasn't just a plug for the NRA. Take a look at http://www.netcraft.com/survey/, according to THESE stats 60% of web servers are running Apache, 30% Microsoft. A survey 5 years ago I came across stated that 95% of the world's data is stored on IBM systems. Over 40% of the world's DB's are Oracle. What does all this prove? That there are many ways of looking at IT and that there are many "markets" within it. The whole Microsoft, Mac, Linux thing is only one aspect of it (the Desktop / Server OS). <SNIP>Someone earlier complained about a floating frame on my website. Floating frames are cool, but only work with IE, and considering that IE counts for 93% of all browsers out there, I'm willing, at this time, to abandon the 7% of the rest. Then there's one more reason for Netscape users to abandon it.</SNIP> One small thing to note is that mobile computing device (especially phone) growth is faster than PC growth. Many of these devices (including consumer devices such as fridges) are increasingly internet enabled. IE may have 93% of the PC market now, but you won't find IE being part of too many embedded devices (Opera is doing quite well in that market segment). Microsoft loves it when people use it's proprietary extensions and file formats as it locks people into using their products and paying for their upgrades, but that's your choice. <SNIP>At this time, for better or worse, Microsoft is the defacto standard. If you are creating software for any other OS, you have seriously gimped your market share. (Unless your creating something that is lacking in the other OS, of which there is plenty... including Winamp)</SNIP> It depends on what segment you are aiming for. If I am writing software for server management / web mastering, etc it is likely that I will target *nix. If I developing / maintaining software for my local bank it is highly unlikely to be Microsoft! <SNIP>This is not about which OS is better, this is about why even you, yes you.. are using MS products. And don't tell me you don't, cause the numbers speak for themselves.</SNIP> When I write a document I use MS*Word. When I surf the net or email I use Opera (which avoids 90% of viruses - most of which are Outlook or IE dependant, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/ for details). When I use an ATM or fly a plane I hope to hell it is NOT using bugware from Redmond. Funny thing about numbers though, if 100 people in my company are sitting in front of a Wintel box accessing corporate apps on a mainframe or *nix box, then we obviously have 100 Windows users, but do we also have 100 *nix users. According to most surveys the true answer is that users = boxen so we have 100 Windows users and 1 *nix "user". I also know that if I write software for Windows I am competing against every Tom, Dick and Harry so (unless I write for a niche area) I can't charge more than US$100 a copy. When I write custom software for *nix the asking price is as high as US$70,000 per copy (If you think this is excessive then ask yourself if you would really want your bank keeping your financial records with the latest version of EZY*Banking Pro for $10 from CNET). <SNIP>PS - Windows XP sucks. Don't know about Linux, haven't used it... probably sucks too.</SNIP> WindowsXP is based on the NT/2000 kernel and is infinitely better than the DOS legacy-based Win95, Win98, WinME line. I like the product, but not the way it is licensed - but that's my choice. Regards, Ashley

 [16/23] from: carl:cybercraft at: 26-Feb-2002 18:01


On 25-Feb-02, Terry Brownell wrote:
> Winamp is for Windows and Mac. It's true that 'many' people use > windows, but I don't know how you can make an Mp3 player for view > without multiplying the effort times the number of OS's people > use/want. And I'll explain why it's a waste of time trying... > <The "Why use Winamp" rant...> > I personally couldn't care less what OS I use,
Not caring about which OS you use is a major point of REBOL. By saying it's okay for a REBOL competition to be restricted to one OS is saying we /should/ care which OS we use. Taking this to its logical conclusion, the scripting language used for this REBOL competition should be Perl as that's the scripting language most people use. -- Carl Read

 [17/23] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 26-Feb-2002 10:30


Hi all, Maybe I'm a little bit out of topic.But one question comes to my mind: Who will be using Winamp controller/skinner in View/pro for $50 instead of using free Winamp itself? regards, Cyphre

 [18/23] from: tbrownell:shaw:ca at: 26-Feb-2002 0:23


Carl wrote...
> Taking this to its logical conclusion, the scripting language used for
this REBOL
> competition should be Perl as that's the scripting language most > people use.
Considering we're referencing Perl and Python scripts that already do what were trying to do, you bring up a valid point. Rebol is the best as far as I'm concerned, but there comes a point when an inferior system becomes the best one to use, simply because it's more popular. Classic windows/apple/linux argument. The only thing windows has going for it?... Third party support. TB

 [19/23] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 26-Feb-2002 9:39


Hi Cyphre, << Maybe I'm a little bit out of topic.But one question comes to my mind: Who will be using Winamp controller/skinner in View/pro for $50 instead of using free Winamp itself? >> I think the original goal Terry wanted to pursue was a REBOL MP3 player that could be used to let people show off their REBOL skinning skills, as WinAmp does. Not having an available codec, the first option was to use WinAmp's engine and put a REBOL UI over it. --Gregg

 [20/23] from: etienne:alaurent:free at: 27-Feb-2002 0:03


Hi, Cyphre, Very good question :-)) Perhaps people having a very great passion for Rebol ... like us ... if the Rebol team can help us to keep our passion. Cyphre wrote:
>Hi all, >Maybe I'm a little bit out of topic.But one question comes to my mind: Who
<<quoted lines omitted: 33>>
>> >>
-- regards. --- Etienne

 [21/23] from: tbrownell:shaw:ca at: 26-Feb-2002 9:21


> Maybe I'm a little bit out of topic.But one question comes to my mind: Who > will be using Winamp controller/skinner in View/pro for $50 instead of
using
> free Winamp itself?
Not trying to replace the Winamp gui, more interested in skins for view. However, scripting brings a layer of function to winamp, or any other application. One idea that comes to mind is the "Fatal Car Accident Audio Player"... lets say your driving along, flicking through the stations, then suddenly BAM, CRASH, SMASH. Next thing you know, your lying next to your car, and feeling your life essence slipping away, you hear Barry Manilow singing "Copacabana" on your radio. "Her name was Lola, she was a showgirl..." Now by adding a layer of function to an audio player, you could have it detect the collision, perhaps a port to the airbags or something, and play something more suitable to the occasion, maybe "Stairway to Heaven" or anything by the Crash Test Dummies. Betcha Winamp can't do that :) TB

 [22/23] from: carl:cybercraft at: 28-Feb-2002 15:12


On 26-Feb-02, Terry Brownell wrote:
> Carl wrote... >> Taking this to its logical conclusion, the scripting language used
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
> more popular. Classic windows/apple/linux argument. > The only thing windows has going for it?... Third party support.
But that's an OS argument, which is an either/or argument. Running Java apps doesn't stop you from running REBOL scripts at the same time, does it? REBOL doesn't have to be the dominant scripting language to be a success. Anyway, what I should be saying is that a skinning contest should be for skinning a current, popular, REBOL script, and not for something that's OS dependant. -- Carl Read

 [23/23] from: ammonjohnson:y:ahoo at: 28-Feb-2002 16:39


That is kind of what I was pointing at, maybe competing skins could use Etienne's Skin Tools, then they would be appliable to any script. ;-)) Enjoy!! Ammon

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