Giving up Rebol?

I am getting a bit tired with Rebol for a lot a reasons that this List has often exposed: poor documentation, poor feedback, many gotchas and unexpected GPF. So I am seriously thinking of giving it up. What kind of alternative is available out there? I mean which programming language or development system will provide most of the qualities I was looking for in Rebol? I don't mean to be provocative here. I'am simply asking the best people to know. Patrick _____________________________________________________________________ GRAND JEU SMS : Pour gagner un NOKIA 7650, envoyez le mot IF au 61321 (prix d'un SMS + 0.35 euro). Un SMS vous dira si vous avez gagné. Règlement : http://www.ifrance.com/_reloc/sign.sms

Hi Patrick: So sorry to read of your concerns! * pat665 <[reboler--ifrance--com]> [021210 06:46]:

> I am getting a bit tired with Rebol for a lot a reasons that this List has > often exposed: > poor documentation,

> poor feedback,

> many gotchas and unexpected GPF.

> So I am seriously thinking of giving it up.

> What kind of alternative is available out there? I mean which programming > language or development system will provide most of the qualities I was > looking for in Rebol?

> I don't mean to be provocative here. I'am simply asking the best people to > know.

Oh, you 're right! As for me, this lissts discussions were und are the main topics. not a rebol as such; mine first guess would be "biglloo" ( from Manuel Serrano) on inria fr . It's old good scheme , open source, and good tools like scribe - you can write you html stuff in semi-scheme - which can be integrated in Apache; rather interesting thing! Cheers alex pat665 wrote:

OK Patrick, here we go ... ... you know me, so you probably know too, that I was (am) regarded being the most negative voice here. So just don't try to take over my position ;-) OK, now seriously. The last year or even more I felt frustrated by RTs strategy and lack of communication . Each time I voiced my opinion I was accused of being negative, possibly destructive to the newcomers, not doing actually anything usefull (not producing any scripts) etc etc. Then something happened. I received emails or was contacted in conference by various ppl you know here on ml, and suddenly I was not allone. The difference though, was that I am used to express myself loudly. Maybe it is not good tactics, but I am used to it. So ... I talked to Carl in IOS Messenger ... not once, but several times. He explained me few things, which could probably can't be told publicly here back at that time, so I better understood RTs position. OTOH I provided him with nearly all negative reports I received from various users here and tried to convince Carl, that something definitely HAS to happen. I thought to myself - something has to happen, or Rebol id dead. Latest offcial View release nearly one year ago? No new docs? No new IOS reblets? Holger, Jeff, Sterling silently vanishing from this ml? Terrible feedback? And just few hours later, November update was publised at RT's site. And that was just beginning. And I hope it IS just beginning and thigs are starting to be brighter once again with Rebol. Carl's presence here, his willingness to communication, gives us new refreshing feeling that being a Reboller does make sense once again! So you told me there is no feedback, right? Sorry, but don't you lie a bit ;-) I myself sent three reports to feedbacks, others did sent some feedback too, and as for me, I received answers in one day! New feedback is cool, it is as it should be. What is more, I have heard that SDK customers will have access to public bug database - even cooler! GPF? When? How? If so - report it to feedback. Rebol does not behave randomly, if it crashes, it is most time reproducable - so send your feedback in and RT will hopefully tell you, when they'll fix it. Docs? It will come imo. There is new glimpse - SDK docs. They are imo good. And - that is also our position to help RT with new docs. The future? It was already told here by Carl - SKD release first, many bug fixes follows, then various enhancemets will hopefully take place! So, I would very MUCH liked RT turning into core language developments/enhancements! There is plenty of desires here. Async networking, color text and various other View enhancemetns ... I would also like to suggest RT to turn into framework provider. E.g. I feel a bit limited with IOS here or there. Maybe RT could add IOS rmp protocol and app protocol to SDK and sell it for some 500 USD or so, allowing developers to come up with various IOS variants etc etc. Why do I regard frameworks being important? Because others can build upon them, in an unified way .... Rebol itself is a framework, but we need imo protocol/scheme plug-in framework and as for View plug-ins, it is upon Carl to decide and find some working model, as it can be risky too ... I hope we will soon enough here some word from Carl, upon the direction he chooses for Rebol and its core development ... PS: If I can suggest you - don't give up! Or even better - go for Python, Curl or Ruby ... and you will very soon realise, that none of them is ideal (maybe Python is most worked out, as it is older language ...) and you will always miss something you had with Rebol. And at the time you get back, many things you complain about will be hopefully fixed ;-) -pekr- pat665 wrote:

> -----Original Message----- > From: [rebol-bounce--rebol--com] [mailto:[rebol-bounce--rebol--com]] > this List has often exposed: poor documentation, poor > feedback, many gotchas and unexpected GPF.

> So I am seriously thinking of giving it up.

> What kind of alternative is available out there? I mean which > programming language or development system will provide most > of the qualities I was looking for in Rebol?

> I don't mean to be provocative here. I'am simply asking the > best people to know.

Hi Tim, <<"C" is full of gotchas. Whole books have been written on the subject. >> My favorits is Holub's: Enough Rope to Shoot Yourself in the Foot. ...though I seem to have loaned it out, along with some others... -- Gregg

Hi, Patrick, One more chance? ... 8~( pat665 wrote:

> I am getting a bit tired with Rebol for a lot a reasons that this > List has often exposed: poor documentation, poor feedback, many > gotchas and unexpected GPF. >

> So I am seriously thinking of giving it up. >

> What kind of alternative is available out there? I mean which > programming language or development system will provide most of > the qualities I was looking for in Rebol? >

Hi Pat, p> I am getting a bit tired with Rebol for a lot a reasons that this List p> has often exposed: poor documentation, poor feedback, many gotchas and p> unexpected GPF. p> So I am seriously thinking of giving it up. p> What kind of alternative is available out there? I mean which programming p> language or development system will provide most of the qualities I was p> looking for in Rebol? Since I don't know what qualities you're looking for, I can't tell you what else might work for you. I've looked at lots of languages and, for better or for worse, I'm hooked on REBOL. Python is very popular these days, and Ruby is very strong in Japan, but hasn't caught on in many other places yet. I like Ruby better myself, but that's just me. I also think Euphoria has some potential though I've only tinkered with it. I was a VBer for 11 years (I guess I still am, though my heart isn't there any longer) and you could head down the .NET path as a safe bet for something with lots of docs and users. Personally, the whole .NET thing is where MS lost me, but YMMV. I'm also a big fan of many things Eiffel has to offer but I just never got into it in a big way; so I scavenged concepts from it for use in other places. :) Best of luck with whatever you choose to do Pat. -- Gregg

HI, Of, course it is up to you, but like some of the others have pointed out, if you leave, you will be leaving just as the going startst to get good. ;-) Feedback system is largely improved, New indepth docs are being released, Carl himself reads the list and responds to some of the emails, what more could you want? Enjoy!! Ammon Johnson --- CIO Addept ------------------ (www.addept.ws) 435-616-2322 -------- (ammon at addept.ws) ----- Original Message ----- From: "pat665" <[reboler--ifrance--com]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:30 AM Subject: [REBOL] Giving up Rebol?

> I am getting a bit tired with Rebol for a lot a reasons that this List has

> So I am seriously thinking of giving it up. > > What kind of alternative is available out there? I mean which programming

Hi, Patrick, pat665 wrote:

> >I'd encourage anyone to keep REBOL in his/her toolkit, > >even if it weren't the first language for every task! > > It's like breaking up with someone and still being friends, isn'it? >

Hi List, Isn't it a sign that my Rebol email reader crashed twice tonight so I have lost all my mails? However, thanks to eScribe, I have been able to read the many answers you have made to my post. There are two voices in my ears. One says "Give it up, you've already spend to much on this thing, it'll never work". The other whispers "Be patient, changes are coming, remember how enthusiastic you used to be". First of all, I must say that this list is *first class*. Certainly a good reason to keep with Rebol. * * * Tim Johnson said * * *

>But we don't know what you are looking for :-)

>The last year or even more I felt frustrated by RTs strategy ... >The future? It was already told here by Carl - SKD release first,

>so send your feedback in and RT will hopefully tell you, when they'll fix it.

>The only thing I learned from all the years: >There is no silver bullet...

> Python is very popular these days, and Ruby is very strong in Japan...

>One more chance? ... 8~(

>I'd encourage anyone to keep REBOL in his/her toolkit, >even if it weren't the first language for every task!

> New indepth docs are being released, > Carl himself reads the list and responds to some of the emails

Hi, I might get shot for saying this, but the last language I looked at that really "Clicked" with me, that is the last one that just made sense and was easy to program in for me was Perl. ;-) I know it can be quite cryptic and impossible to read, but when I picked up the right book, I could do anything I wanted with it without too much trouble. Hey, you asked. ;-) Oh, and as far as the timing issue goes, relax, this is the software industry! Delivered on time is unheard of in the public domain. If you want to go to some private corporation and work inhouse, you might be able to meet some sort of schedual (like maybe be to work by 8:00 AM ;-) but other than that RT has in my experience been very good at releasing their stuff on time. I am beta testing some software for a rather large corporation that produces some very fine programs, and I signed the NDA in August, we were due to be testing in October. I have only recieved one email from them and that was on 10/29 stating that it isn't quite ready and they will be in contact within me within a week of when the program will actually start. I can't reveal any more information than that or I'll be breaking my NDA, but hey, relax this is the software industry. ;-) Enjoy!! Ammon Johnson --- CIO Addept ------------------ (www.addept.ws) 435-616-2322 -------- (ammon at addept.ws)