Embedded REBOL (Re: Population of PDA Users)
[1/11] from: brian::hawley::net at: 11-Apr-2001 16:38
Hi all!
Ryan Cole wrote:
>Palms, thus Handsprings, are very limited. Though they tought 8 MB these
>days, they only have 32K of fast RAM available for programs. The memory
>to which they refer operates slowly and is intended for program storage
>and records. You can still use this memory as you do RAM, but it is much
>slower.
Actually, the RAM hardware the heap is in is no faster than
the rest of the RAM. The reason it is 32k is because it is
accessed using a 16-bit signed offset pointer. Other RAM
needs a change of base pointer in addition to the offset,
an operation that takes slightly longer. Palm OS is 16-bit,
like MS-DOS. The speed difference is similar to that between
.com and .exe programs on DOS.
The only slower RAM in Palm-compatible handhelds is in the
add-on flash cards that are available for Visors and Sonys.
>I am sure REBOL could work on the Palm, but it would crawl in
>comparison to other ports.
Certainly, because it would run on 16-33 mhz processors.
>To further deter, they likely would have to do extensive porting,
>since the Palm OS seems so much different than other operating
>systems that I know.
Palm OS is pretty generous by embedded standards. REBOL just
isn't structured by embedded standards. And yes, REBOL would
need some minor rewriting to really fly on Palm OS, WinCE or
in any other environment that is not based on the slow-disk,
large-heap pattern. Palm OS and WinCE are based on a small-
heap, in-memory database pattern. WinCE has a potentially
larger heap (32-bit addressing) but can have a heap that is
too small for traditional REBOL, as I think it does with the
HP Jornada 620 when its RAM hasn't been updated.
Of course Carl would be the one to ask about this, with his
experience in OS design, but I'll give it a shot.
What REBOL does now:
1 - Load the native core from the disk to the heap.
2 - Decompress (build?) the REBOL data into the heap.
3 - Run the interpreter.
What other languages do on these platforms:
1 - Execute the native code from where it already is.
2 - Access the data directly from in-memory databases in the
native format, without needing to put it in the heap.
3 - Run the interpreter.
What REBOL would need to do to make this work:
1 - Make sure that as much of the native code as possible
is reentrant, so that multiple REBOL instances can be
run at the same time from the same code. This could
improve the Windows and Linux ports as well, maybe.
2 - Structure the REBOL heap as an object-database, or
perhaps several databases. One way would be for the
system to get one read-only heap for the mezzanine
and below, and one read-write heap for each session.
Objects in the main heap changed in a session would
be copied to the session heap and changed there. The
existing REBOL code is somewhat anti-reentrant, so a
little rewriting would be necessary to minimize the
copying (and enable multi-threading as well). The
database code could just be a wrapper around system
database support on platforms that have such, like
Palm and WinCE. You can even compress the code in
the main heap with a REBOL-to-native compiler, and
even store most of the native functions in it.
3 - Some of these platforms don't have an easy mapping
to the program concept - on Palm a "program" is a
database with native code in its records. They also
don't necessarily have specific program opening and
closing operations, basically picking up where they
left off. The session concept would map quite well
to this, allowing you to pause and resume multiple
sessions, start new sessions, and even "stop" them
by deleting the session database.
I'm sure that there are other factors that I haven't
thought of (Carl, chime in!), but that should cover the
basic changes. The REBOL code should be mostly portable
between Palm, WinCE, etc. The native code would be less
portable but some careful planning and a REBOL compiler
would relieve some of that.
>Keep in mind that the Palm was originally designed to be a
>robust handheld organizer. I think, and many would agree,
>that they are overdue for a new OS and hardware archetecture
>to meet developers increasing desires.
I believe Palm OS 4.0 is supposed to be that. It is even
said to be ported to the ARM architecture (I'll believe
that when I see it).
>Maybe a cut down, compileable?, REBOL like language, for cell
>phones and PDA's? A REBOL PDA dialect? Carl could probably
>write it in a weekend.
>: )
I could probably write it in two weeks (at least the basics),
after several months of reading and research of course. :(
Experience counts. I've been thinking about this, off and
on, for a few months now. Carl has actually done things like
this before (Amiga comes to mind)...
>Till then I will keep on using Satellite Forms, which I am skepticle is
>more productive than C since I spend sooooo much time dealing with thier
>interpeter's bugs. For now I can only hope Carl gets a PDA itch,
Me too!
Brian Hawley
[2/11] from: chrismorency:videotron:ca at: 11-Apr-2001 19:29
Hi all!
Actually, the RAM hardware the heap is in is no faster than
the rest of the RAM. The reason it is 32k is because it is
accessed using a 16-bit signed offset pointer. Other RAM
needs a change of base pointer in addition to the offset,
an operation that takes slightly longer. Palm OS is 16-bit,
like MS-DOS. The speed difference is similar to that between
.com and .exe programs on DOS.
I'm not sure, but I guess a good PalmPilot programmer could be able to pull
this off... I might even know someone who'd be interested...
Palm OS is pretty generous by embedded standards. REBOL just
isn't structured by embedded standards. And yes, REBOL would
need some minor rewriting to really fly on Palm OS, WinCE or
in any other environment that is not based on the slow-disk,
large-heap pattern. Palm OS and WinCE are based on a small-
heap, in-memory database pattern. WinCE has a potentially
larger heap (32-bit addressing) but can have a heap that is
too small for traditional REBOL, as I think it does with the
HP Jornada 620 when its RAM hasn't been updated.
I personnally tried rebol (as opposed to use or abuse ;-) on three WindowsCE
platforms, and it ran really good... Is there any benchmark script ? I'd
like to see how it can manage with objects...
>Till then I will keep on using Satellite Forms, which I am skepticle is
>more productive than C since I spend sooooo much time dealing with thier
>interpeter's bugs. For now I can only hope Carl gets a PDA itch,
I did a multi-platform porting/recoding of a PalmOS application originally
written in CodeWarrior for Windows/WindowsCE/PalmOS using VB, eMbedded
Visual Basic and AppForge (VB for PalmOS) with a database being accessed
either through ADO/ADOCE/AppForge PDB Library with a Conduit written in VB
that was synchronising data using ODBC and building the MDB, CDB and PDB
databases at once... overall, I reuse 90% of the code in all version (only
byref object type where modified and the database access !). If Rebol/View
existed on all three platforms, I'm sure we would have used it ! And could
still use the scripts online to do the same !!! Rebol is a refreshing look
in programming I'd like to see more in PDA and Mobile units...
Last time I looked at Satellite Forms, the license fee was way overrated !
Chris
[3/11] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 11-Apr-2001 16:34
<SNIP>
> I could probably write it in two weeks (at least the basics),
> after several months of reading and research of course. :(
>
> Experience counts. I've been thinking about this, off and
> on, for a few months now. Carl has actually done things like
> this before (Amiga comes to mind)...
</SNIP>
I have considered it too. I actually went so far as to test some interpeter
designs. I ended up producing something much simpler, more oriented towards
data collection for now.
Lately I have been really thinking about just s--- canning the Palm, and going
with, well, something else that can run REBOL. I might getting one of those
VR6's, just to see if I can get REBOL to run on it.
--Ryan
[4/11] from: jeff:rebol at: 11-Apr-2001 16:50
Howdy, Chris:
> I'm not sure, but I guess a good PalmPilot programmer could
> be able to pull this off... I might even know someone who'd
> be interested...
Yes, the REBOL Palm port lives in a border town next to the
realm of "possibility". REBOL has even been compiled for
Palm before, but the problem is that in order for REBOL to
run (or even to boot) a segmentation paging scheme (virtual
memory) has to be used. Under such a scheme, page faults
would occur constantly. More time would be spent moving
memory than in being an interpreter. As you approach the
problem of a REBOL Palm port, it becomes increasingly
infeasible.
The other approach is to hack the memory protection of Palm
OS. This isn't acceptable, though, because of the potential
for accidentally hurting other apps or data on the pda.
There's still more issues, from Palm's event model and how
REBOL's works, potentially workable, but still an issue.
And how do you write scripts -- in graffiti?? Storing and
load scripts from the database?
Anyhow, there were enough demonstrable problems with it that
we scrapped consideration of the Palm -- to the
disappointment of many.
-jeff
[5/11] from: chrismorency:videotron:ca at: 11-Apr-2001 21:25
Hi,
Lately I have been really thinking about just s--- canning the Palm, and
going
with, well, something else that can run REBOL. I might getting one of those
VR6's, just to see if I can get REBOL to run on it.
Hmm, I know some people can't stand Microsoft's products... but there might
be a compromise for someone considering buying a PDA. For instance, the
Compaq iPaq (strongarm) running PocketPC out-of-the-box "can" and "is"
currently flashed with Linux ! It host a 206 strongarm processor, quite
enough to run some scripts ;-)
Best,
Chris
[6/11] from: chrismorency:videotron:ca at: 11-Apr-2001 21:22
Hi,
jeff wrote:
Yes, the REBOL Palm port lives in a border town next to the
realm of
possibility". REBOL has even been compiled for
Palm before, but the problem is that in order for REBOL to
run (or even to boot) a segmentation paging scheme (virtual
memory) has to be used. Under such a scheme, page faults
would occur constantly. More time would be spent moving
memory than in being an interpreter. As you approach the
problem of a REBOL Palm port, it becomes increasingly
infeasible. "
Of course, I have to agree with you, the memory system in the Palm is surely
a limit. I've had my share of dealing with it ;)
The other approach is to hack the memory protection of Palm
OS. This isn't acceptable, though, because of the potential
for accidentally hurting other apps or data on the pda.
Unless it'll be only used for Rebol... but then again, what is the point of
having a Rebol-only PDA ?
There's still more issues, from Palm's event model and how
REBOL's works, potentially workable, but still an issue.
Please don't elaborate more, I know about that event model, and that
pseudo-multitasking behind a true-hackable-multitasking and I'll probably
have nightmares tonight ;-)
And how do you write scripts -- in graffiti?? Storing and
load scripts from the database?
Well I wouldn't write them using Graffiti that's for sure. But then again,
one could write them on his desktop and load them on it's PDA. I've actually
written several programs in OPL for the PsionS5 on the device itself and I
have big hands !
Anyhow, there were enough demonstrable problems with it that
we scrapped consideration of the Palm -- to the
disappointment of many.
Well, I can understand why the Rebol team has decided to put the development
of Rebol for the Palm on hold, but why not under EPOC ! At least for those
who can't stand owning a PDA running WindowsCE or any Microsoft's OS ;)
Best,
Chris
-jeff
[7/11] from: rishioswal:y:ahoo at: 11-Apr-2001 20:07
EPOC would be a good os to port rebol. Psion users are
the type of people who would buy rebol/view/core/pro.
The built in OPL language (basic like) is very
popular...
rishi
--- Christian Morency <[chrismorency--videotron--ca]>
wrote:
[8/11] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 12-Apr-2001 11:41
Hey Chris,
I have'nt made a decision, and I still have more research before I do. Putting
Linux on a Pocket PC is interesting idea though. Actually CE is a possibility,
and I would like to support it for those applications that just need 64 MB,
those sworn to Microsoft, and a few other instances. The VR6 so far seems to
fit my essential criteria quite nicely. Even if it was CE, it would be on top
my list. However, I do personally dislike Microsoft and CE, so the fact its not
CE is exciting. Of course previously I was'nt pleased that moving to REBOL
meant moving to CE.
--Ryan
PS: Satellite Forms has no runtime licensing anymore.
Christian Morency wrote:
> Hi,
> "Lately I have been really thinking about just s--- canning the Palm, and
<<quoted lines omitted: 12>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the
> subject, without the quotes.
--
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is
limited. Imagination encircles the world.
-Einstein
[9/11] from: kolla:nvg:ntnu:no at: 14-Apr-2001 3:30
On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Brian Hawley wrote:
> What REBOL would need to do to make this work:
> 1 - Make sure that as much of the native code as possible
> is reentrant, so that multiple REBOL instances can be
> run at the same time from the same code. This could
> improve the Windows and Linux ports as well, maybe.
I remember asking about this on that IRC conference with Carl
back when the very first rebol binaries went public, or rather
more specificly back then, wether we could expect to see rebol
as shared library or background engine like RexxMast on amiga.
If my memory serves me right, the answer was positiv, ahm.. :)
-- kolla
[10/11] from: chrismorency:videotron:ca at: 12-Apr-2001 19:18
Hi Ryan,
Unfortunately Linux suffered major blows lately regarding PDAs in the news /
reviews. Yes, although I have several WindowsCE/PalmOS/EPOC devices, I still
hope Linux will find it's way on PDAs.
As for the VR6, I don't know, you might be interested in reading what
Brighthand.com had to say about the VR3 :
http://www.brighthand.com/html/otherpdas/agenda_page1.html, doesn't sound
good so far. Last I hear, Yopi was not going to see it through
productions... and the only ones who seems to pull it off might be Compaq :
http://www.handhelds.org/ with their linux-oriented PDA projects including
flashing PocketPC iPaqs with Linux ;) but it's still a risk, you could loose
your device in the process...
But to get back at Rebol, I tried the Change Benchmark available at
www.rebol.org and it (the script not revol) crashed with a stack overflow
??? I wanted to evaluated Rebol's speed under some WindowsCE devices... I'll
have to take a look at the code and see what's the problem...
Best,
Chris
[11/11] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 12-Apr-2001 18:13
Thanks Chris,
Hopefully the finished product is nothing like the developers model. I am now
in no hurry to get one for testing, though I still see alot of potential.
No easy decision now,
--Ryan
Christian Morency wrote:
> Hi Ryan,
> Unfortunately Linux suffered major blows lately regarding PDAs in the news /
<<quoted lines omitted: 75>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the
> subject, without the quotes.
--
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is
limited. Imagination encircles the world.
-Einstein
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