[REBOL] Re: Language Popularity & Network Effects; Ruby & Mongrel
From: moliad::gmail::com at: 22-Nov-2007 1:07
On Nov 21, 2007 3:53 PM, Ed O'Connor <edoconnor-gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting discussion. I like the notion of PHP finding its niche
> with serving web pages.
>
> I'm not sure what REBOL's niche would be. REBOL was designed as a
> messaging language. I think I'd be struck down to hear someone say,
> "Boy, you need to get your hands on a good, solid messaging language!"
> Or, likewise, "Where can I find a dynamic, highly-reflective
> metaprogramming language when I need one." :^)
REBOL is the most productive programming environment I have used for quick
and dirty stuff. yet for all its qualities, its the least documented
framework I've ever used. sometimes you realise that its as huge as .net
and you never knew!
we all know R3 will address a lot of this. and its not just talk, the guys
handling the task, really are writting down a lot more than I can remember
in prior iterations.
> I think that REBOL's strong point is it's convenience.
yep. no other language allows you to define DSL, parse strings, create
guis, define stylesheets, embed a rich client all using ONE single datatype
rich language.
I wonder why many of the serious REBOLers are not using REBOL more. So far
I have used REBOL in all environments I can think of, from async concurrent
multi -port tcp enterprise servers, XML db use, web-service clients,
web-service servers, advanced node-based graphical pipelines, neural nets
(one done entirely in REBOL :-), http clients accessing servers providing
non browser guis, I've even made a crawler robot for a site built which does
nasty anti-robot stuff (using cookies and timer + counter based redirected
urls).
I've basically built an asp contender with remark ( but much leaner and
vastly less sprawled, one very simple object model handles everything, from
resources to master templates, to db, styles, etc).
I've programmed one of the most advanced procedural node engines I've used
so far, in any platform and a lot of other things, and well, its always
easier *overall* with rebol.
its not always faster in execution, but there is soooo much less clutter in
the way of having to program against the language or its framework.
I really find that its always simpler, even when you must roll up your
sleeves to solve a little issue which REBOL doesn't support natively.
> REBOL needs to enable the type of programming experience and end-user
> apps that people are not getting from current scripting languages and
> tool-sets.
I agree, but I find it already does, to a large extent. much more than many
other systems without needing to understand much, I find. just the use of
something like save and load is a god send you quickly long for in all other
environments.
for many, rebol goes against the long entrenched idea that complex things
are more capable. some things are much less necessary in REBOL. so its
hard to accept to release some coding habits in order to adopt another
coding style.
Having done REBOLing almost exclusively for so long now, I'm finding it hard
to adapt to other languages now. simply cause everything just seems bloated
and over-engineered, when in the end, it adds nothing to the actual
delivered application.
the issue is that simple things like an open field of grass, are harder to
use in order to arrive somewhere, cause there is no obvious destination,
there is more burden on the capacity of the architect. in complex systems,
the architect is so tethered, that in fact, his role is reduced to
implementing a predefinied path.
so it is easier, but in the end, you are just as equal as every other person
using a specific system. less capable engineers/architects cannot fathom
using REBOL (I am talking experience here, hehe), cause its too open, not
structured enough...and they are actually reminded that they lack something
in what should be their primary qualities.
just like bad managers often lack the qualities of being able to trust their
own gut feelings, changing stuff, meddling and many other project/team
destructing habits.
I'm not saying R2 is perfect. some things are lacking, only that many
people downsize it, when I have found that with minimal actual
investement... its actually already capable of just about everything people
keep saying it isn't.
(this is a general reply... and not specific to your own comments... but its
a recurring thread which I just wanted to address after having done REBOL
professionaly for about 1 1/2 years almost full-time).
there are big servers running mission critical stuff, for surprising
companies... using REBOL... its just not something people advertise. they
really don't care... as long as it works.
the only issue I personnaly have is that the view engine (not vid which is
built over it and is very flexible) is a bit too closed up, because eons
ago, it was limited so that it would be the same on about 15 different
platforms. that vision has changed a bit now, so R3 will be much more open
to being adapted to the host, in order to benefit from each host's
advantages... just like it should be.
end users don't care how things are coded... but they really care when you
change the way they are used to using software on their platform.... a
common recurring comment... "what, no icon dropping? wtf?"
-MAx
