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[REBOL] Re: Hitting the learning curve

From: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 8-Nov-2003 18:25

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:17:43 +0100, Petr Krenzelok <[petr--krenzelok--trz--cz]> wrote:
> OK, one other problem I can see with rebol is - lack of frameworks.
Hi, IMO that's the part to put work in (what I'm doing). Building dialects for special tasks and makeing it possible to use those dialects together. I'm always sceptic on frameworks that have a "it does it all" approach. This forces you to follow the framework road all or nothing. I'm more addicted to small, simple dialects that just do one job self-contained.
> I don't want to use async:\\whatever kind of stuff - I want RT to > decide what is good and what not, and if it is good it should be added > to rebol, simply to provide such common base to all of us.
Why do you want RT to do it? We can do it today! But assembling a set of dialects, nice protocolls etc. in a way that you still have a component model where you just pick the stuff you need, is a very complicated task. What I try to do (slowly) is to build up such a set that I'm going to use for all my Rebol projects and grow it over time. As soon as most of use base their work on the "Rebol Community Framework", I'm sure RT is open to adopt it. But creating such a framework needs leadership! Who is going to do it? That might be easy, but is the community going to support this person? If not furstration will come up.
> It can be said by one sentence - Rebol has not reached critical mass of > developers. We can see it in the case of projects - as Max said - there > is noone to help. Even top developers have their main daily jobs, so > they have less and less time for rebolling, or simply can't afford to > donate more free time to rebol. It happens to all of us ...
Yes, it happens to all of us but anyway, each spent effort helps and creates value. I don't see it as a big problem. Progress will just need more time.
> I too, was asked several times - stop talking and show us some code. And > I say - stop talking BS if you don't understand there is several levels > of team roles needed :-) Well, really - you can code, I can do testing, > someone other docs, someone other can define product design etc etc. Can > we tell what role is more important than other one?
It's not easy to setup a community development process, get it to life and keep it going. It's all about the people. If we can setup the code, testing, doc, product design... chain we would be one big step forward. But working in an volunteer environment needs patient, it's not daily business and people able to spend more time, need to understand that not everyone might be able to contribute in the same volume.
> - more RT (Carl's activity) in a leaader role
This won't happen, otherwise it would have happend already. Why not someone else?
> - RT identifies area to solve, sets coordinators, they choose team, team > works ... (I think library project worked similar way ...)
Same answer, it's up to us to organize this. IMO RT should focus on enhancing the base technology, managing the community must be done by the community.
> - but as I am not talking only about rebol based apps, but rebol > development itself, RT's participation is absolute necessity ... that is > one of reasons why 1.3 VID failed ... team reached some decision points, > but talking to Carl once per 2 - 3 months is really not enough ...
Than let's decide and create facts! I don't expect Carl to be narrow minded and don't give it a look or the required priority if it makes sense to RT.
> So ... if RT has enough money to survive curent way ... let's be it and > I wish them millions, really :-) ... but ... times goes by and other > technologies development don't sleep. I always ask myself - how can > rebol survive in a current state of things? ... and honestly I prey > REBOL not becoming another Amiga ...
I'm not a clairvoyant, that's RT's problem. Some of us are willing to help them and have ideas. IMO the success of Rebol can be influenced massivly by us. It's not easy, but it's doable. Let's go and make a business from it. And, don't rely on RT to get your business done, this is our job.
> That is my opinion on identifying basic rebol related areas ... I hope > they are not offending, as they were not ment that way anyway ...
Petr, we are used to it ;-) Robert