[REBOL] evaluation result
From: boris::garbuzov::marketingtips::com at: 2-May-2002 9:56
Sorry for a long message, and thanks to all those experts assisting us of
evaluation of Rebol technology for mail frow namagement client project. I
feel obliged to share the results before signing off the list. Shortly,
Rebol was rejected for not allowing direct multi-threading, for its
singularity on the market and for very trapping licensing policy. The latter
particularly means that if we want to ship our app as a single executable,
we need to pay royalties. Java 2 stand-alone + JavaWebStart was chosen.
Below is detailed report. Boris.
-------------------------------
7. Summary on Technology Choices
7.0. JSP
Description
Sun;s technology for web applications hand writing. Currently is the most
popular base for them. Usually it is mixture of HMTL or XML with java code.
Sources
Sun’s forums and Apache’s lists…
Client downloads
No additional software needs to be downloaded. It is just a regular HTML
from client’s point of view. But as for any HTML solution the whole page
with data and wrapping tags needs to be re-downloaded each time we want to
change a piece of data.
Testing.
· Unit testing. Lots of open source community frameworks, for instance
HttpUnit for client, Apache Cactus for server and Junit for general and
stand-alone testing.
· Automated GUI testing. For Dean to evaluate. Perhaps, some tools on
regular browser HTML testing. We may not need automated tools in this case
because unit test means cover it quite well.
Pros
· Popular, many experts in it around. Supporting community is also large.
· There are many free engines.
· client is just HTML, no download headache
· most Java candidates voted for it..
Cons
· if it serves HTML, it is the most limited in layout and action amongst
other choices.
· client is not smart enough
Other
…
Acceptance
Rejected as a means of HTML or Flash delivery because they are not
multi-threaded. We may still consider some secondary intermediate layer with
its usage. Though we can serve our Java 2 application just from a static
page.
7.1. Java 1 applet
Description
Original way to serve java agents to client. Runs is a browser. We can use
it for both web and stand-alone client.
Sources
Sun’s forums, JUG mail lists
Client downloads
Jre 1.1.8 download size is 2.7 megabytes, in most of the browsers it is
installed. Java plug-in size? Windows and Solaris versions are available on
http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/1.1/jre/index.html. Seems, plug-in is
available just for Windows and Solaris? Browser cashes the applet classes
during the session. Otherwise it re-downloads the code each new session.
Whereas JRE stays forever after the single download.
Testing.
· Unit testing. General Junit framework, perhaps, there is some
applet-specific. There is Java 1 version for everything.
· Automated GUI testing. For Dean to evaluate.
Multi-threading
Available as in any Java code.
Pros
· Majority of browsers should support it without downloads
· mature and established technology
· can run sophisticated code
· multi platform
Cons
· browsers incompatibilities in reality
· security limitations
· Java 1 becomes obsolete
· slow
Other
· Mixed HTML-applet solution. Both Adrian and Jon Stoski mentioned it to be
not so heavy as a whole single applet. But anyways we lose the main goal of
having common code base.
Acceptance
Rejected because Java 1 is obsolete and applet technology goes out of
fashion as inconsistent and poorly supported by browser vendors.
7.2. Java 2 applet
Description
Next to original way to serve java agents to client. Runs is a browser
usually through plug-in. We can use it for both web and stand-alone client.
Sources
Sun’s forums, JUG mail lists
Testing.
· Unit testing. General Junit framework, perhaps, there is some
applet-specific.
· Automated GUI testing. For Dean to evaluate.
Multi-threading
Available as in any Java code.
Client downloads
Jre 1.4.1 download size is 9.2 megabytes. Plug-in technology is specially
intended for Java 2 applet. Seems, plug-in is available just for Windows and
Solaris? Browser cashes the applet classes during the session. Otherwise it
re-downloads the code each new session. Whereas JRE stays forever after the
single download.
Pros
· Majority of browsers should support it without downloads
· mature and established technology
· runs the most contemporary Java
· multi platform
· we can have trees and other cool Swing stuff
Cons
· browsers incompatibilities in reality
· security limitations
· 8 megabytes of JRE 2 to download (condenced)
· sow
Other
· Since dropped Java support in XP, there is little download difference with
Java 1 applet.
Acceptance
Rejected because applet technology goes out of fashion as inconsistent and
poorly supported by browser vendors.
7.3. C++ stand-alone
Description
Just like existing Mailloop5 or future Mailloop6, but thinner. We can use it
for stand-alone version only.
Sources
Rick, Paul, …
Client downloads
Just a small application needs to be downloaded and installed once. No
additional software. But as any stand-alone thing it can not be run from the
browser without installation. But on the other hand as for any stand-alone
application, it must be downloaded and installed just once.
Testing.
· Unit testing. CppUnit and other for general C++ and specifically for
Microsoft studio. Rick also says, it is possible to call COM objects from
Java using J++ libraries.
· Automated GUI testing. For Dean to evaluate. Perhaps in this case we need
automated tools the most. And this is the most common use for them.
Multi-threading
Available as in any Java code.
Pros
· GUI is reusable for Mailloop6
· Quick
· No security limitations
· Easier to talk to C++ Microsoft services. How did it talk before in
Mailloop5.0?
· Existing people know how to do it.
Cons
· Single platform
Other
Acceptance
Rejected because it is single platform based and has poor ability to run
from the browser.
7.4. Java 1 stand-alone
Description
Application over JRE 1.
Sources
Sun’s forums, JUG mail lists
Client downloads
We can ship with JRE 1.1.8 that is 2.7 megabytes on top of small application
size. By cost of slight enlargement we can whip the executable for each
platform wrapped into install shield. Or not to care about platforms we can
ship the zip and suggest the customer to pre-install JRE. As any stand-alone
application, it must be downloaded and installed just once.
Testing.
· Unit testing. General Junit framework. There is Java 1 version.
· Automated GUI testing. For Dean to evaluate.
Multi-threading
Available as in any Java code.
Pros
· multi platform
· free
· has many open source knowledge communities around
Cons
· requires JRE 1 on client’s machine or should be shipped with it, possibly
wrapped into InstallAnywhere executable.
· Slight security limitations
· Sow
· Java 1 gets obsolete
Other
Acceptance
Rejected because Java 1 is obsolete.
7.5. Java 2 stand-alone
Description
Application over JRE 2.
Sources
Sun’s forums, JUG mail lists
Client downloads
We can ship with JRE 1.4.0 that is 9.2 megabytes on top of small application
size. By cost of slight enlargement we can whip the executable for each
platform wrapped into install shield. Or not to care about platforms we can
ship the zip and suggest the customer to pre-install JRE. As any stand-alone
application, it must be downloaded and installed just once.
Testing.
· Unit testing. General Junit framework.
· Automated GUI testing. For Dean to evaluate.
Multi-threading
Available as in any Java code.
Pros
· multi platform
· free
· has many open source knowledge communities around
Cons
· requires JRE 1 on client’s machine or should be shipped with it, possibly
wrapped into InstallAnywhere executable.
· Slight security limitations
· Sow
Acceptance
Accepted as multi-threaded and partly compatible with browsers.
7.6. Java Web Start
Description
Free Sun’s implementation of Java Network Launching protocol intended to
help rusty Applet technology to run Java 2 application from the browser on
client’s machine.
Sources
Sun’s forums, JUG mail lists
Client downloads
The download and installation process stays in between customary concepts of
stand-alone and web application. There is no plug in for it. Usually there
is a link for the customer to download 9.2 megabytes of JRE 2, plus 8
megabytes of JavaWebStart on top of it. This is a single download and
installation of base and our software. No other downloads and installations
are ever expected unless we encourage it from the server if we need to
update the application’s version.
Testing.
· Unit testing. General Junit framework. Perhaps there are some specific
issues and special frameworks and design solutions for them.
· Automated GUI testing. For Dean to evaluate.
Multi-threading
Available as in any Java code.
Pros
· multi platform
· free
· has many open source knowledge communities around
· 8 megabytes of download over 9 megabytes of JRE 2.
Cons
· requires JRE 1 on client’s machine or should be shipped with it, possibly
wrapped into InstallAnywhere executable.
· Slight security limitations
· sow
Other
Kind of a plug-in that helps client run java stand-alone apps from browsers.
There is no research on browsers’ support and how smart it is. Also, JN
thinks it is too much of download headache for a customer. V.S.’s point is
that by using JavaWebStart we can develop just one client version and use it
in two ways. More and more people suggest it. V.W. thinks, it helps to
automate version upgrade routine. Now if to compare Java2 applet and
JavaWebStart app, apart from reliability issues - what is the principal
difference? I think, first of all in download cycle. Java 2 applet requires
to download Java 2 VM once and applet every new browser session. Java Web
Start requires to download VM once, target application also once (unless
newer version detected) and some Java Web Start thing in addition. So they
both download Java2, though applet may be cashed but never installed into
the system, whereas Java Web Start requires more to download first time, but
less all subsequent times. Some security issues may arise. For instance, if
the user tries to access his system from the Kinko's, Internet Cafe or
public library, those machines will surely allow applets but may disallow
target app installation from Java Web Start, and disallow to install very
Java Web Start. Is that right? These are just my premature guesses. This is
what response I got from Sun’s forum on plug-in for JWS: I don't believe
that JWS can boostrap itself onto a client. In my test so far, I have a link
in my web page to the appropriate sun URL from which the user can download
the JRE and/or the JWS. They must first do that before downloading my
application using JWS. You can provide a link to
http://java.sun.com/products/javawebstart/ for people
to download. It will auto-detect your operating system.
Acceptance
Accepted as more fashionable than applet way of running from the browser.
Also, we need to write just one application, not 2, no headache with version
synchronization.
7.7. Flash
Description
Macromedia;s technology to show vector graphics in a browser, alternative to
HTML. Data source is binary. The server side Salsa script and J2EE
connection through paid Macromedia’s Gateway is possible.
Sources
· Macromedia, Inc. 600 Townsend Street San Francisco, CA 94103 Tel: (415)
252-2000, [info--macromedia--com], [support--macromedia--com], [home--macromedia--com],
[all--macromedia--com], [sales--macromedia--com], [webads--macromedia--com], …
· Open sources: http://www.anotherbigidea.com/javaswf/index.html,
http://www.orgdot.com/javaopensource/,
· From A.F.: www.flashgap.com and www.jzox.com.
Client downloads
0.5 megabytes player and in most of the cases nothing needs to be downloaded
once. Then media size is bigger then HTML, but still small if no animation
is used. Data reload may be organized economically unlike in HTML. Perhaps,
bigger player must be downloaded for Flush MX that has built-in standard
controls library.
Testing.
· Unit testing. specific Flash solutions need to found out. Perhaps, it can
be debugged. If it is within HTML page, probably Junit can still be applied,
if it is served from JSP server, Junit and Cactus will be used.
· Automated GUI testing. For Dean to evaluate.
Multi-threading
No.
Pros
· - it is much richer than HTML.
· - supported by 98% of market client browsers.
· - requires very little to download in plug-in fashion if any at all.
· We may need to buy merely nothing at all
· - tends to be a base for new browsers, is in fashion. There are many Java
open source packages for SWF rendering and automatic content update.
· Generally it is deep and growing technology, so we may commit to it not
fearing licensing traps.
· - looks less fragile then Java Applets.
· - has possibility smart action and communicational scripting.
· Allows dynamic content generation through open source Java APIs.
Cons
· - increasing development cost. We do not have many people around
experienced in dynamic Flash applications. To connect it properly to back
end. And sure it is harder to incorporate it into standard server
technoloties like JSP comparing to HTML.
· - some parts of this technology are not free. Development tools, gateway
if we need it...
· - it may be disallowed by customer due to reputation of heavy overuse.
Customer may be afraid of nasty media.
Other
· I still do not know about multithreading here. I will know by tomorrow.
Acceptance
Rejected as not multi-threaded.
7.9. Rebol
Description
Core component is a base for Perl-like scripting language. View component
adds GUI, many other components add options. IOS seems to be
inter-organizational environment like Lotus Notes or Filosafe.
Sources
[rebol-list--rebol--com], [info--rebol--com] http://www.rebol.com/feedback.html
[grossdog--dartmouth--edu]
Client downloads
0.5 megabytes of view.exe must be pre-installed and then really small script
text file application on top of it. Perhaps, we can compile and link it
together with Rebol base and then ship. That size should not be large too.
Perhaps we need to buy more from Rebol in this case.
Testing.
· Unit testing. As [greggirwin--mindspring--com] says, since REBOL doesn't
support step tracing at this time, the console and embedded print statements
are the most common debugging tools I think, at least they are for me. There
is also a unit testing script (based on JUnit?), called rebol-unit.
According to [ryanc--iesco--biz], testing is done at the console level.
Generally REBOL is easy to test and debug once you understand how evaluation
occurs. When an undefused error occurs, the program breaks into console
mode, much like BASIC. At this moment you can peer into your program, test
values and functions, somewhat useful. Usually though, you add probes into
the suspect area of your program to make sure it is doing what you expect.
Almost all bugs I encounter are fixed within a minute or two, and often just
seconds. The tools are not nearly on the level of Visual BASIC, though
somehow debugging goes pretty easy in REBOL.
· Automated GUI testing. For Dean to evaluate. Perhaps we can consider it
just like regular native GUI application, especially if we compile it on
server. As to specifics, Boris may ask on mailing list.
Multi-threading
· As [greggirwin--mindspring--com] says, REBOL doesn't support native
multithreading. Maarten's latest release of Rugby has cooperative
multithreading in it as an example of how you might approach it.
· According to [ryanc--iesco--biz], no forking in native rebol. Here is a simple
2 line a piece master and slave demo, made in about twominutes. This is one
way to communicate between processes. You may also should be able to tie
processes together with better performance by using C functions. I cant
give you an example of that. Does anybody know if you could fork using a C
function from REBOL?
Pros
· EK recommends it as another “run anywhere” thing
· It may help us for managing remote space for clients saving their list
files there.
Cons
· seems, it is not intended to be used for this purpose.
· Not free.
· it is not a popular solution, so we may run into unexpected technical and
business license traps. For instance
· what serious projects had used Rebol?
· what is the way of delivery to client - myapp.r and view.exe files? Can we
re-desctribute the components? What should we buy then? Or we can compile
a
