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Speaking of which, RebGUI is pretty damn cool.

Henrik, cool stuff. Please, make a RebGUI version :-))

a RebGUI version will not be far off, but I need some method to display 
layouts inside layouts for faces like search fields in the toolbar 
to work.

james; Umm, letting me live in REBOL land.  :)  Debian comes with 
hundreds of web

environments, I'm sticking with REBOL as much possible.  And I can, 
if needed, modify

Cheyenne in a crunch,  a lot faster than I can grok through Apache, 
etc...


It's my first crack at being a server.  Lots to learn, and I plan 
on getting knocked to

the ground a few times, but that's ok.  Everything is rsync'ed from 
Spike (the main)

to Chester (the redundant) so I'll do my best to protect client data.


The plan is progressing to have a RebGUI frontend for clients to 
change pieces of 

their webpage,  (through REBOL/LNS running on the server), so the 
people

of my smalltown can have a web page with zero html experience.   
Fancy stuff, I go
on the clock...cheaply.  It is a smalltown.  :)   Today is day 1.

I've got one in rebgui ... but it's all hard coded ... I wouldn't 
know how to generalise it.

So, how would you compare your vid exxtensions with RebGui ?

I haven't done much of a comparison, but I think if you are relying 
on RebGui, it would not be wise to switch. Also I wouldn't market 
this as a separate, new toolkit, but as VID as it should be. RebGui 
is probably more stable. There are still plenty of things left to 
do here. Even though many of the things I've done here are very generic, 
it has primarily been designed to solve specific problems with some 
apps I've had to build a few months ago.

I was wondering if someone were starting off from scratch .. better 
to use rebgui or your extension kit?

Back from training course. Read new VID message from  ML on my cellphone 
:-) I was very surprised, that nearly at the end of R2 lifestyle, 
where RebGUI is the king, something like that is coming.

Thanks Maxim,

Waiting for your GLass/Liquid stuff to be completed...I would love 
to get a better inface on my app...right now I feel its full of hacks 
to get R2 view to do what I need it to do...


I looked at GLayout (and REBGUI) but I thought pure VID would be 
easier for me to make any needed workarounds to missing needed compoments. 


Once I get a solid version 1 out I will look into porting to R3 (If 
new VID is ready) or your stuff again if you release a new version...

Ashley's RebGUI docs include a nice little snippet on OS X app bundles, 
just FYI.

I have looked at Ashley's RebGUI work already, very nice.  Need to 
bring my basic REBOL up to speed though to start using it.  I did 
note the bundles part already as well, very helpful.

but i should retake rKini and port it to rebgui that would be nice 
I think

Could you post/email me just the caret-to-offset and offset-to-caret 
patches? That should be enough for me to get RebGUI working. Thanks.

Also note, to get the caret and highlight handling / rendering working 
properly will require you to do in Rebgui the equivalent of the above 
ctx-text patching etc. That's quite a bit of work.

btw, ive seen u invited to the french translation task. im heavily 
trying to learn rebgui, so u as well can use a nice editor for the 
qtask lang file ;)

this might be something dangerous:

write %test.r "hello"
path: what-dir
remove back tail path
write %test.r "hello" ; this fails


problem is: what-dir returns directly system/script/path what seams 
to be used in order to resolve relative file values

I just recognized it using the request-dir from didec which was in 
the rebgui distro -038 (he's doing this in the request-dir function 
in the line with


if all [not empty? path slash = last path][remove back tail path] 


so question is whether this is a bug and belongs to rambo, is ok 
(I don't think so) or what else ?

might also be that didec changed this in a later version (script 
was dated 2003 and maybe at this time 'what-dir had a different behavior), 
but this doesn't matter regarding what 'what-dir returns

rebgui looks much cleaner IMHO.

Funny, that's what Anton just said in the RebGUI group. ;)

That trick should help with rebgui too.

VID is great for prototyping, and for apps where saving a little 
memory and speed aren't critical. So, I think VID is still a valid 
prototyping tool because you don't know what you want to build the 
first time out (in many cases) and it allows you to play around more, 
with less effort. Now, there's no good reason you couldn't use the 
VID dialect, limit yourself to what REBGui can do, and use the VID 
spec to generate REBGui code. Best of both worlds.

RebGUI 0.1.1 released ( http://www.dobeash.com/files/RebGUI-011.zip
) and View facets documentation updated from feedback ( http://www.dobeash.com/it/rebgui/facets/
).

Anton

 1) VID working with RebGUI ... no reason why not (haven't tried it 
 yet though)
	2) display help cleaned up
	3) Minimum window size ... can be set to 0x0 with /limit

 4) Progress bar using effect ... agree. I want to emulate the WinXP 
 progress bar with image / effects

Graham

 1) Intent ... Ammon & Gregg answered this already; bottom line - 
 whatever folks feel more comfortable with

 2) Positional references were only meant to be for sub-faces of a 
 widget ... documentation corrected
	3) display now accepts set-words as per Vincent's code

Vincent

 1) Changed all occurences of as-pair to to-pair so your prob is fixed 
 (and RebGUI can now run from rebface)

 2) Change 'foreach to 'parse ... done (with the benefits you listed)

Shadwolf

 1) "Ashley is one of the few VID artist" ... thanks, but I defer 
 to Chris in all matters graphical! ;)

Gregg
	1) Agreed. (Need I say more? ;) )

Out of interest, I started rebface (REBOL/SDK) and did several recycles 
before looking at its process size under WinXP. Did the same thing 
again but after do'ing %styles.r and %display.r, and repeated the 
procedure for %view.r (the SDK func that pulls in VID). Results were:

	rebface	3,540 KB
	RebGUI	3,628 KB
	VID		5,224 KB


So I can say that (at this early stage) RebGUI seems to use 88 KB 
while VID uses 1,684!

I'm using the SDK rebview 1.2.10 as my baseline. The only three mezz 
funcs I have had to abandon so far are:


 as-pair		; better off using to-pair reduce [x y] as I'm dealing with 
 integer-based co-ords anyway

 center-face	; was used once in the 'display func and it's inline 
 representation is more efficient

 span?		; used in render-rich-text with a check as per your suggestion 
 (render-rich-text is used from REBOL/VIew more often than not)


It's only the RebGUI code that has to conform to these restrictions; 
user code can use whatever mezz funcs and run under whatever REBOL 
version they want. I used the same design philosophy with RebDB (if 
it runs under SDK/rebbase, it will run anywhere). In the majority 
of cases the extra mezz funcs are more usefull at the user code level 
anyway.

On all things View, the best reference that I have seen yet is http://www.dobeash.com/it/rebgui/

Updated http://www.dobeash.com/it/rebgui/facets.html(section 5.9) 
with above information / references.

but slower than making a recycle on every show function calls in 
Vid application like what was done in  rebgui  ?? I don't think so 
;)

petr: i think the best info available is that on the rebgui's site.

I know - but RebGUI will not explain me how to construct styles, 
no? Those thigs like init method description etc. IIRC there was 
some attempt to write it down, so, links apreciated :-)

Shadwolf, yes, you're right. Today VID is a bit loosing the focus 
in favour of REBOL/View 1.3.0 and probably RebGUI, but I'm sure there 
will be efforts again.

RebGUI  have it's own phylosophy first make tiny useful widget set 
that take the lead over VID ...

I think Rebgui could be an OS independent link to user Interaction

Chris your code can be bettered more people will work on it more 
sharp it will be and if we have as goal to include it into a state 
of art basement library like rebGUI I think this will be very enthousiastic 
for people who will participate ;)

I make a listview widget multicolumn multi resizing with drag&drop 
Viewed bar effet like in Win32API and multi widget type capable in 
only 3 weeks and using less than 300 That's the illustration that 
REbgui and VID base concept are pretty good  !!

Henrik good one I like it you yet input in it some simpatical capabilities 
that I was planned to add into the list view of rebgui like line 
to field editting conversion ;)

Since the very beginning of VID we have seen lot intent of widgets 
improvements make by pationnated people but we never take the time 
to enclose those work into a trully thinked system that's why we 
don't have a reable and durable widget design effort and RebGUI  
tryes to fit this need

that doesn't mean that we can't anymore work on our side to search 
for better widgets and better interactivity system but havng RebGUI 
 improvement as goal makes our work to have a meanning

I don't know how rebgui is built, but if my list turns out as well 
as I hope it will, I'll gladly donate the code for you to adapt it. 
I'm going to use it myself for my VID applications

Henrik truelly RebGUI  is simple you have basic object (rebface) 
with only the needed things and starting from this point you can 
make new widgets enheriting of rebface basic things and extended 
them ;)

rebgui works like that you fill the pane field of the box with all 
your needed widgets and then you make a show box and voila ;)

RebGUI is really nice attempt and only few styles are missing from 
general well usability ...

so the actual RebGUI is the soon of the work and research of Ashley 
on the MD-Viewer program ;)

how is that? Even with VID, you can set facets to 'none, if you don't 
need them. And layout is involved only during parse and VID decomposing 
phase, not later, so imo only time it takes is to initially parse 
and build View face level hierarchy, no? Then there is imo no difference 
from RebGUI.

Petr, I think RebGUI is faster because it's not concerened with styling 
schemes as VID does; it's benefit is that it's doing less than VID 
always tried to accomplish but never fulfilled as much as it would 
take to call it complete.

Chris RebGUI is faster because you don't use layout parser ;) what 
does layout ?

it takes what you write in VID  and convert it into face  based object 
... RebGUI skip this stage and works directly with the objects ;)

VID  use a translation process and REbgui on use it once to make 
the window first design but then not any more for the design ;)

Yes, that's what I meant: But VID wouldn't need a layout parser, 
too, if weren't as stylizeable than it is. As far as I know, RebGUI 
*by design* doesn't support different styles and therefor is by design* 
faster.

And I very much appreaciate the RebGUI efforts.

ichris I'm not sure that we can't make using rebgui sharper things 
more styles or even skinnable that's not the primary goal in fact

Yes, that's the good thing with RebGUI: completeness over fanciness 
;-)

I still think what you basically say here is not all that true. Layout 
loop is involved only during composition, then, once on-display, 
you are at the same league with VID as well as with RebGUI, more 
or less....

I don't want to sound harsh, but I start to see RebGUI as more consistent 
by design. It surely does not allow some things, but ...

But at least now, we as a community focus again on what needs to 
fixed in VID rather than native issues (and all the other bugs that 
got taken care of) This is a good thing.. If we are complaining about 
VID again, I think that is a sign that 1.3 has helped move us forward. 
And there is nothing in VID that can't be changed or replaced by 
something else as REBGui shows us.

I hope we are not complaining about VID believing that Rebgui has 
stalled !

work of Ashley and Shadwolf and (Cyphre) are great on RebGui.

it will be good for rebol and RT to have a link page on REBOL.COM 
to project like RebGui.

Allen - I talk about precise plan for 1.4 - so really - genear info 
of "Yes, 1.4 will come after 1.3" somehow does not help here :-) 
I talk about details, simply kind of resurrection of older 1.3 project 
days, where we held talks about VID, each style etc. And it can get 
pretty tricky. You remember? We had problems to agree upon new button 
:-) The worst thing is - we have to keep backwards compatibility 
in mind :-(, so projects like RebGUI have some advantage here, starting 
from scratch. I e.g. wanted area having automatic scrolliers, but 
Carl did not agree because of compatibility ....

it's not that VID is not good, it's that its purpose was not to be 
the ultimate gui framework, but more of an example of what you can 
do; indeed, now we have RebGUI too. but, the problem with that way 
of thinking, is that in practice developers need a solid base to 
start. so it's much better for everyone to provide it.

Kru nice job why not to include this kind of mad widgets to rebgui 
?

shadwolf why not, what's the difference between VID and REBGui widget?

... currently there is probably no single project running (well, 
maybe except RebGUI). Maybe it would be good if Rebol.NET would feature 
links to some top rebol products/projects (Maarten's bundle?) IIRC 
Carl mentioned it is a good idea, so maybe I could put small reminder 
about that in RAMBO? (if this is the right place, but I think it 
is ...)

Paul;  If you are still reading.  You owe it to yourself to check 
out  http://www.dobeash.comAshley has offered the community some 
real killer development tools; RebGUI and RebDB being but two ... 
seperately both wonderful tookits, together, a very powerful combination.

Perspectives of a newbie! By Steve Thornton (SteveT)


Hi! everyone, as someone brand new to REBOL I've been asked to log 
a journal
describing my experiences using REBOL. 


I think the first thing to get out of the way is to tell you where 
I'm coming

to REBOL from. I've programmed on and off for over twenty years starting 
with

Clipper 5 (dBaseII), Visual Basic (Access), C# (SQL Server), Java(NetBeans 
+

JavaDB). I've worked in a variety contract/freelance work. I earn 
approx half 

my income form 'Thornton Software' and I work for Iris Software Group 
- 

as a training consultant (training accountants :-\ someone has to 
do it!)


I can hear some of you saying 'Ahh! he's an IDE wimp - real men/women 
code

from scratch'. It was strange - every language I've used had an IDE 
and I

was a bit put off having to go find myself an editor. Until something 
better

find's me I'm using the freebie 'CREdit' as recommended by Sunanda. 


The easiest way to edit/test the scripts is to open an explorer window 
at

the side of the CREdit window showing my scripts folder. I can then 
drag a .r 

file onto the CEdit screen and it opens it. To run the script I double-click
it in the explorer window.


The help and documentation available is better than I have previously

experienced. Some of the components I've been wow'ed by so far is 
Henriks

List-View and RebDb from Dobeash. I've looked at RebGUI and for the 
time being 

I would prefer not to use anything on top of VID, I need to learn 
pure VID before
using anything else.


REBOL Cookbook of examples is a useful place to start. Some more 
form oriented 

examples would be cool. Example 014 - 'Open two windows'  and Example 
10 - 'Simple text
form window' are both useful


The Event Handling guide is a good resource for programmers moving 
from Visual
Studio etc..


That's more than enough to be going on with, next time I'll cover 
my experiences 
with VID, FACES and handling Events.

Bye for now.
Steve Thornton

Oh! right and VID could be replaced by rebGUI or whatever

Cool, is Ashley re-working rebGUI for VID 3 or will it be redundant. 
I've never bean totally happy with a third party widgets (like Python 
+ vxWidgets) or Java + Mattisse etc

I'm not sure RebGUI will be available for R3, but he knows that better 
than me. I've never used RebGUI much. :-)

Or ... for an easier professional look to an app, I suggest RebGUI. 
 http://www.dobeash.com/rebgui.htmlAshley has done a wonderful 
job of taking the REBOL view engine one step up (imho).  Some may 
disagree; but RebGUI is my main REBOL graphical app tool.

Yes would like to get around to using it (RebGui) but would like 
to understand the background mechanics a bit more sorry about the 
laymans terminolgy but know very little about programming

there is a replacement GUI system available called RebGUI. If you 
find VID to be lacking what you need, perhaps RebGUI is capable of 
solving your problem. (but I don't use it myself, so I know nothing 
about it).

I think I had to also change the default font used for RebGUI.

OK, so I've downloaded Ubuntu 9.04 (64bit) and got it running under 
VirtualBox, then I download and untar/zip the REBOL SDK and open 
a console session. cd to the REBOL dir and do a chmod +x and type 
./rebview ... which comes back with a "file or dir not found message" 
... anything else I need to do to get REBOL working? Oh, and what 
font looked best with RebGUI in your opinion?

Probably not a font issue then. Works fine here on OSX so sounds 
like a Linux specific error. Does RebGUI work? (REBOL/Demos group)

Yeah works on OS X for me too, got that on my laptop. RebGUI seems 
to work fine, went through a few of the tabs, nothing crashed.

Hello everybody, I have a problem with Linux:  DRAW   choose a font 
that give problem displaying:

example: ['text "Hello word!"]
view layout [ box 100x100 effect [draw example ]]

on linux it gives a blank window.
I added:

example: ['text "Hello word!"]
if (pick system/version 4) = 4 [
	fnt1: make face/font [ 
		name: "/usr/share/fonts/truetype/freefont/FreeSans.ttf"
		size: 12
		]
	os: "linux"
	]
if os = "linux" [ insert example reduce ['font fnt1]	]
view layout [ box 100x100 effect [draw example ]]

This solution is good, but using REBGUI  it doesn't work anymore.
What can I do?

Sorry, I I finded now the RebGUI group, I'll post there my question.

IDE for REBOL must be open for example in the Layout designer I want 
to be able to choose betwin comon Vid or a sub widget library like 
RebGUI for example ;)

Pekr yes we can do adaptation but this will enslow dramatically the 
SVG rendering. My goal is to make a SVG widget capable for REbGUI 
 to dispaly graphic content like tool bars, logo etc so faster is 
the render better it's

warn me when update is done ^^ I could finalise my SVG renderer widget 
for rebgui  ^^

shadolf i dead waiting lol  ... Well SVG renderer widget  for RebGUI 
is not a urgent stuff at all ... Well yes if the 2 needs i have are 
integred to next rebol/view AGG  release it would be really nice 
this will allow us to enlight  rebGUI look with scalable graphics 
^^. next thing once the 2 needs i have are available will be to work 
on the renderer engine widget to make it as fast as possible to allow 
a lot of  SVG content to be rendered without impacting rebgui performencies.

we have to fixe too the usuabilitie of SVG content into RebGUI too 
but i think this is a last issue to discuss .Ashley propose the idea 
of a svg renderer widget to be included into RebGUI. I took his code 
and propose a more advanced version and this work allow me to pop 
out some needs to perfectly comply  the rendering task. But the main 
discution on what we are going to do ith the renderer once we have 
it is not started yet. I think many things can be expected from a 
SVG renderer widget in REBGUI  but then  it depends too on the quality 
to the resulting renderer.

by extension i was planing this to be once a short and full working 
solution will be found to insert it to RebGUI as a basic widget  
of this set  ^^

Hey Shadwolf ... don't miss Ashley's message to you in RebGUI channel!

I asked Cyphre to add some examples, he will do it as time permits. 
This new released version should be more stable and should work both 
with VID and RebGUI ....

my idea was: let's write something from scratch that uses all the 
good ideas from vid, glayout, rebgui, liquid and so on.

With RebGUI state, although VID my be more free-form, I refuse to 
even touch the thing, which does not have scrollers with area, list-box 
is not indexed and it hilites two the same values, and tonnes of 
other problems ...

since it works on a view object ... it should work on Rebgui as well

Doesn't seem to work with layouts from rebgui

>> lo2: display "Test" [ text "hello" ]
>> unview/all
>> type? lo2
== object!
>> to-postscript lo2
** Script Error: Cannot use path on none! value
** Where: ps-face
** Near: if f/font/name [append font-name 'Helvetica]
if find

perhaps the layout tree is different for rebgui

for Rebgui ... f/font is none

need to hook this up to rebgui

liquid-vid should make glayout and rebgui obsolete.

grids are much easier (actually quite easy) to build with liquid, 
and in any case, its still faces... so importing a gadget is dooable, 
if rebgui doesn't depend on too much out of widget infrastructure.

Max, you should try to find a route to attach liquid to existing 
GUI like VID or RebGUI. By a dynamic hook or so.

someone could most probably use the same core system and adapt it 
to rebgui's dialect.

rebgui, not a clue.

exactly.  I have never had the need to look at or use rebgui, ever.

I tried downloading it once and after tortoise svc started fucking 
up and slowing down my computer, I got fed up, and uninstalled it, 
and rebgui wen't along with it ... hehe

I can tell you that its pretty easy to make it work in vid, so it 
should be pretty easy to make it work in rebgui.

A bit OT but Lad and I started a test-dialect for RebGUI. You could 
send CLICK to GUI objects etc. and compare results and state, make 
screenshots of something was wrong etc.