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World: r4wp

[Ann-Reply] Reply to Announce group

DocKimbel
8-Jul-2013
[2221x3]
Pekr, we are talking about ability to build kernel device drivers, 
nothing to do with a user-mode dynamic library, it's another world.
Though, for now, we are more interested in a special category of 
kernel drivers: filter drivers (e.g. think Dropbox-like integration 
with the filesystem).
We implemented it in the dyn-lib-emitter branch because we needed 
some specific features of that branch.
Pekr
8-Jul-2013
[2224x2]
Well, thanks for reply, which is not reply at all :-) If I would 
not know those are different beasts, I would not ask for the difference 
description ;-) So, as a developer, having some device - why would 
I choose to implement kernel driver instead of some supporting library? 
Does it allow e.g. access to more low level stuff inside the OS? 
Well, should google it probably ...
OK, found something - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6007176/what-is-a-windows-kernel-driver
DocKimbel
8-Jul-2013
[2226x3]
Device drivers are part of an Operating System, nothing to do with 
an application-level library.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Device_driver
So, as a developer, having some device - why would I choose to implement 
kernel driver instead of some supporting library? 

 You're aware that you can't access hardware directly from user apps?
Pekr
8-Jul-2013
[2229x2]
ah, actually not. All our developed hw is intelligent, even if based 
on MCU, it uses TCP/UDP stack ;-)
But I do seem to understand - if I would produce card into PCI slot, 
that would be different situation. Am I right, that under Linux, 
situation is kind of simpler? I have seen some scripts, which blinked 
leds on BeagleBone, by just writing to/reading from particular directory, 
so expect situation under unix systems being kind of - simpler? Or 
once again wrong?
DocKimbel
8-Jul-2013
[2231x6]
it uses TCP/UDP stack

 And how do you think your user app sends and receives TCP packets? 
 :-) It does through a kernel driver for the network card, provided 
 by the OS.
If you like, you could rewrite such kernel driver for the network 
card in Red/System now for Windows.
The /proc file accesses you've mentioned on Linux are just wrappers 
that rely on kernel drivers. There's no shortcut in modern big systems, 
User app => OS => Hardware.
I agree though, that the Linux /proc approach is nicer and can be 
very helpful.
For example, we could now use Red/System to write a kernel driver 
for exposing a proc:\ virtual disk to Windows, with similar features 
as the Linux /proc version.
Actually, that could be a nice project to promote Red. ;-)
Maxim
8-Jul-2013
[2237]
indeed.   adding an actually stable and simple virtual drive system 
to windows would be nice.  I've tried two free ones, and they just 
end up crashing the machine when used.
DocKimbel
8-Jul-2013
[2238x2]
However, this is not a project for faint-hearted, writing kernel 
drivers is notoriously difficult (whatever system you're on). There's 
a possibility for user-mode drivers on Windows, but I don't know 
much about them yet.
I hope to be able to provide a general-purpose virtual drive system 
for Red apps at some point (would be nice if this was contributed 
or sponsored).
Kaj
8-Jul-2013
[2240]
Maxim, interesting that this problem isn't solved yet. Do you have 
links for those free systems?
Maxim
8-Jul-2013
[2241]
nah, it was a few years ago I don't remember any of it.   I had done 
a few searches and tried what I could.


IIRC the not for free solutions had a better reputation (but I didn't 
purchase any, it was just for fun).
Gregg
8-Jul-2013
[2242]
MS has tried to improve things, and I think they have, with better 
test and validation tools for drivers. Helping people that way is 
key.
Kaj
9-Jul-2013
[2243x2]
Those tools haven't helped us any so far. Perhaps they will when 
we write full drivers, but it would be more helpful if the Windows 
source were open. We're working totally in the dark to interface 
with the operating system
I had to refer to the ReactOS source code for some insights
Paul
9-Jul-2013
[2245x2]
I saw the discussion about windows path names.  If you need to convert 
a path to not have spaces then windows uses a tilde ~ for truncating. 
 To see your path converted just open a command prompt and type dir/x
that gives the path names with conversion.
Kaj
9-Jul-2013
[2247x2]
Thanks, but the WDK apparently doesn't do that, because it simply 
doesn't work
Cost me quite some time to figure that out
Paul
9-Jul-2013
[2249x2]
And using quotes doesn't work also?
such as "c:\my documents\Some nerdy dudes folder\"
Kaj
9-Jul-2013
[2251x2]
You'd have to modify the WDK to do that. The use case is simply to 
develop a driver in your user directory
You don't give the WDK full paths, just relative ones, without spaces
Paul
9-Jul-2013
[2253]
yeah I thought it would still recognize the tilde formatted paths.
Kaj
9-Jul-2013
[2254]
I don't doubt that, but you can't solve the problem that way
Paul
9-Jul-2013
[2255]
Ok, not a problem.  I'm not aware of all the details.
Kaj
9-Jul-2013
[2256]
Thanks for your help, anyway. The debugging tools were worth trying
Paul
9-Jul-2013
[2257]
Sure no problem.
Kaj
9-Jul-2013
[2258]
The spaces problem is probably in the 12,000 lines build script I 
mentioned. I didn't feel like modifying that to make it space-proof
MikeL
14-Jul-2013
[2259]
Thanks Kaj.  Saw the Rebol boys this weekend and you, of course, 
were part of the key topics.
Kaj
14-Jul-2013
[2260]
So I heard :-)
MikeL
14-Jul-2013
[2261]
You have a lot of fans.
Kaj
14-Jul-2013
[2262x2]
Good to hear
Did you have a good time?
MikeL
14-Jul-2013
[2264]
I thought it would be OK. When I got there at 11 PM Thursday and 
the hotel clerk said "I don't have a reservation for you" I wasn't 
so sure.   He found one for Michael Michael who had not shown up 
but had the same dates booked as I wanted.    He gave me that room 
because me and Michael Michael have the same home phone number... 
   But it went straight up when I met Gregg at breakfast and I enjoyed 
my whole time there.
Kaj
14-Jul-2013
[2265]
:-)
GrahamC
14-Jul-2013
[2266]
Identity theft!
MikeL
14-Jul-2013
[2267]
Yes after you commit to an online booking site they morph your information 
to other systems which eventually ended up at the hotel to be re-keyed. 
  If you think green screens are dead you should look over the counter 
as they are searching....  Data is probably faxed to them..... so 
it is a bit of a miracle that the world holds together as well as 
it does with this stuff.      .... ahhhh ... opportunity knocking....
GrahamC
14-Jul-2013
[2268]
Always prefer amber screens to green ones :)
NickA
16-Jul-2013
[2269]
Thank you Robert and Cyphre for the new Android release!
james_nak
17-Jul-2013
[2270]
Yes, thank you for the Android release.