[!REBOL3] General discussion about REBOL 3
Do you think that it is feasible to change the current zlib to a more recent version or something else that is better? Keep in mind that I would want that zip:// scheme to exist eventually, even if I have to write it myself.
We would still need to be able to compress and decompress in a R2-compatible way, even if it's optional, not the default. For interoperability.
BrianH: I think we should change the /GZIP refinement to /CRC32 so it is independent of the format. Then we can create mezanine/scheme support code for various higher-level formats (ZIP, GZIP etc.) at the REBOL scripting level. BTW I have finally fixed the current /GZIP refinement problems so now I'm able to ZIP/UNZIP uzing rebol script without the 'PNG load hack' that is on rebol.org. In fact I modified the rebzip.r to work with R3 and the ZIP/UNZIP operations are now "instant" when comparing to the R2 version. So I guess this is a good proof we can write fiast zip:// scheme with just the current COMPRESS/DECOMPRESS natives.
Regarding the zlib code change/update. I think that is feasible. We could try to use the latest version of ZLIB library (hope the licensing is ok, haven't checked that) or look at the MINIZ compression library (check it on: http://code.google.com/p/miniz/looks interesting as it could be more lightweight)
Licensing seems OK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlib_License
Miniz license is even better (public domain).
cool, so looks like we could try to replace the old code in the future with these and see if it makes R3 better.
Is anyone working on the mezzes CHANGES and UPGRADE ? When run from the new builds, they simply head back to rebol.com and do not show the latest goodies from the github.
That's great news Cyphre! Thanks for pursuing it.
I agree on the refinement name as well, maybe adding a note about gzip in the doc string.
Miniz looks nice. Smaller is better for something we're statically linking, and the license works too. How is the error reporting and recovery? That has been a problem with DECOMPRESS.
I already voiced my agreement on the checksum refinement change. I'm on the fence whether it should be /crc32 or /type 'crc32.
Nice, miniz does streaming (de)compression too. Async compress port anyone?
and async parse! :-)
The LiveCode KickStarter campaign to first re-structure the code, make it easy to accpept contributions, build a new IDE and some modernisation has raised over 500,000 GBP (more than 750,000 USD). Same Carl didn't try something along those lines before releasing REBOL 3.
Same -> shame
Perhaps it's not too late?
Oops. it has only raised 475,000 GBP, still more than 750,000 USD
How the heck did they manage that? It was not looking like it was going to make it not too long ago.
I think a lot of people must have watied until it looked as though it was going to succeed.
The big numbers raised are due in the main by their forward selling commercial licences. LiveCode will be dual licenced GPL & Commercial licence.
I don't think Carl could have rasied that much but a well run campaign may well have been able to raise enough to set up a solid infrastructure for the REBOL 3 opn source project. I think 50,000 USD would be in reach.
It's actually pretty easy to see how they managed it. It was: - A multi-language IDE (not a programming language, people already get those for free) - With a GUI with an emphasis on modern graphic design (pretty!) - With a fancy demo (more pretty!) - With an initial focus on programming languages and development platforms that are already popular (built-in customer base) Powerful IDEs are some of the only development tools that people are still willing to pay money for (i.e. Visual Studio). Most people can't choose what language they write in, but they more often can choose their IDE. And for crappy-but-IDE-friendly languages, an IDE can make all the difference in your productivity. They're not as helpful for really powerful extensible languages like Rebol or Perl, unless the language is so bad that just about anything would help (Perl). Plus, since an IDE is an end-user app you can afford to GPL it, since the only stuff built on it are add-ons - that doesn't work for programming languages unless they have a clear distinction between user code and built-in code that is distinct enough to not violate the GPL distinctions, because most of the competition is permissive - and without the GPL restrictions there is nothing to sell, so there is no business model to get a return on investment. It's nice to point to other open source projects and say "See! We could have done that!" but unless those are comparable projects their success isn't comparable either.
How many investors did it take to raise that much money? Because if it was more than 100, that goes past the expected limit of how many people would have been willing to invest in the Rebol programming language. Don't underestimate the power of popularity.
Programming language projects for (unfairly) unpopular programming languages are not commercial endeavors anymore, they're charities. GPL/commercial programming languages that might possibly GPL-infect the user programs are just dead now - they're not even sad anymore. It doesn't matter if the license is carefully arranged to make user programs not affected; most users aren't lawyers and there are much more unambiguously permissive no-cost alternatives out there that might be good enough, and some of them are popular.
Don't knock charities though. Charities can be very successful if they get enough industry support. Python, Perl and GCC are made by charities.
And it doesn't take a lot to run a programming language charity for a somewhat minimalist language. You don't need a lot of people to get the job done. Something maximalist like .NET or Java (when you include their runtime libraries) can need a lot of people, but something small like Rebol or Red doesn't need as much. You can get enough people to fund development even for a charity project just by being useful enough.
LiveCode is not a multi-language IDE. The IDE supports one langauge LIveCode.which is a descendant of xTalk.
Oh, I was getting it mixed up with the recent successful IDE launch on Kickstarter. Let me check.
OK, so it's a single-language IDE aimed primarily at the education market, still with a nice-looking GUI if not as modern, with an appeal based on Apple-fan nostalgia for HyperCard. That's a tougher sell, but since it's education market you can get away with GPL/commercial, and since it's Apple-nostalgia you can raise that much money from merely thousands of investors instead of the millions that you'd need if you were going for a less-well-off target market. Makes sense, but it's still nice to see.
(Sorry, can't edit here) millions -> many tens of thousands
I helps that it is an established commercial product for the development of mobile apps. People still buy tools for mobile app development, though GPL/commercial development programming languages are still pretty rare now even there.
Looks like we have the education market to blame for the GPL/commercial model. I wish them luck.
Brian, maybe you were thinking of LightTable http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ibdknox/light-table
It also did pretty well.
Yup, that was it.
Oh, LiveCode specifically makes the apps you make with it GPLv3 unless you buy the commercial version. Education market...
Or just buy the product.
Livecode is a great tool - the values remind me a low of what made REBOL attractive years ago. It's just a really productive and well designed tool, easy to use, powerful, cross platform (iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux, server), it's SIMPLE and geared towards getting work accomplished. That's it's only goal, and the company has always tried to make good real-world choices about productivity. And they're keeping the system modern and relevent. The REBOL community would be helped by watching what they do...
low -> lot
Well, we can't follow their business model, but there is a lot of other stuff we can learn from them.
As good as REBOL is it could use a good IDE environment. AmigaVision comes to mind. I would be interested to see whether some large chunks of change were invested to put them over the top. Right now R3 needs a message. What makes it special and valuable. What vision does it conjure up.
As great as Livecode is, REBOL's language model is still better, simpler, more powerful.
It's got more potential
I recently put this up: http://easiestprogramminglanguage.com
But has it got the momentum?
I think it still can. Hypercard was dead many years ago.
Android will help.
I'm interested in putting some marketing muscle into promoting it - or very likely RED.