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World: r4wp

[#Red] Red language group

Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4450x2]
I would never want my app to look like GTK, easy as that. Maybe because 
I have zero intention to do Linux native GUI app. Linux, in a big 
picture (desktop), is irrelevant. Alway was. Who claims otherwise, 
lives in separate reality :-) Mobile will prevail classical PC sales 
very soon (if not already). Own GUI, for small niche, might be good. 
But - it has to have attractive design. The situation with Saphirion 
was, that the substantially rewritten Carl's engine. Nice enhancements, 
resizing and other stuff. But I NEVER understood, why the look was 
so totally unattractive. You see, Henrik once again claiming the 
old stuff, which was the basic reason of a failure. Design is a separate 
animal, which was supposed to come later, which could be done by 
anyone, which "just" needs material system which never appeared, 
etc. And result for me (as a sigle person)? Carl's GUI desing attracts 
me by some 60% more, just because of look. Once again - look sells 
...
In fact, what I think is, that Saphirion was really close to the 
GUI engine, which adressed most of what we wanted to solve by VID2 
to VID3 transition. It was just not polished. And because of that, 
ppl did not find it attractive enough to play with. And that's a 
real pity. Anyone doing native platform GUI will make me to close 
that demo at first sight, easy as that. Doc is in kind of difficult 
situation - as we can see, many former/recent rebollers are still 
interested in View like engine. The same reason why Doc dismissed 
LLVM in Carl's blog post, the same reason many will dismiss attempts 
to link to GTK, Enlightenment, etc - I don't want to use 5+MB crap 
...
Henrik
30-Nov-2012
[4452]
which 

just" needs material system which never appeared, etc." - the material 
system should be included in the current Saphirion release.
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4453]
...for easy embedded stuff, just give me a small GUI system, for 
bigger picture, give me a  HTML5


So what do you propose for the GUI, that will allow it to look good? 
i.e., what is your constructive suggestion, rather than criticizing 
all the wrongs of the past.
Kaj
30-Nov-2012
[4454]
Petr, if you pay me enough, I might refrain from doing the GTK+ and 
Enlightenment bindings :-)
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4455x2]
Gregg - my constructive suggestion is to orientiate on the platforms, 
which have a future. Is that an AmigaOS (to which R3 got ported as 
a paradox), is that a BeOS? Is that even a Linux? I would vote - 
Android, iOS, WP8, BB10. If new players with new potential appear, 
let's add them. How many of us would ever need to do a real native 
Linux app? And Linxu, is a big name here.
So - it might seem, that I contradict what Doc wants. I think I don't 
do so. He wants to be native on those above platform. And that makes 
sense. But - are those above platforms done in GTK? Enlightenment? 
Look at Microsfot - I just yesterday was watching their 5 hours of 
SharePoint plus Office 2013 presentation - most of their new stuff 
is becoming - HTML5. They are even scratching Silverlight for the 
typical desktop ...
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4457x2]
My suggestion, then, is to make a list of target OSs, prioritize 
the value of a GUI on them, and propose the best GUI solution for 
each.
Would you be willing to set up a checklist for that Petr?
DocKimbel
30-Nov-2012
[4459]
Pekr: you don't get the right picture. When I mention "native widgets", 
I am mainly referring to the ones provided by each OS, which is what 
most users expect to find in an app for their OS, and what most developers 
wants, is to provide a consistent experience for users. So, actually, 
such approach will be lighter then /View, because the OS provides 
you with everything you need. In the case of Linux, GTK is the main 
standard and it is built-in many distros, so that is the one we will 
probably use for Linux target and you don't need to provide it with 
your app.
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4460]
Or even just a shared doc here.
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4461]
I think the check list is done :-) I think that in 2-3 months, Doc 
wants to start by - Android :-) And maybe something in that direction 
is already slowly starting to happen :-)
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4462]
Where is the checklist?
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4463x2]
No checklist, just general wishlist ...
Doc, fine - then I'll never use Linux as a desktop - hate it, easy 
as that, so no REBOL/Red apps for me there  ... What I wonder even 
more is, if you would be really able to unify, even in the case of 
Linux - what about e.g. Ubunty, and their Unity? Will it work just 
with GTK? Will such app look native in Ubuntu? Just curious ...
Kaj
30-Nov-2012
[4465]
GTK is the native GUI for Ubuntu. I've told you many times
DocKimbel
30-Nov-2012
[4466x2]
How many of us would ever need to do a real native Linux app?


We are talking about a cross-platform GUI framework, that means: 
write once, run everywhere. Using native widgets from the OS is an 
option, using custom ones (with non-standard look'n feel like /View) 
is another option. So, you write a Red GUI app on whatever system 
you like and your Linux users will be able to run it.
Unless you want to boycot Linux users and prevent them from using 
your Red-based product because you don't like Linux? :-)
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4468]
Yes, that's an old discussion. In case I want to be crossplaform, 
I only accept it with mobile OSes, which are very special. I want 
my View app, I want to look and behave it identical on all plaforms. 
Can't imagine how I would be using eg. this Altme on Linux, using 
GTK, then switching to Win7, having totally differnet look, feel, 
behaviour in details ...
Kaj
30-Nov-2012
[4469]
Feel free to write a custom GUI in Red
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4470]
Linux is dead since its beginning, as far as desktop goes anyway. 
It is here since mostly 1994? Where's the world domination? Look, 
I welcome alternatives, I grew up with them, I am just realistic. 
E.g. Haiku has some drive, so much energy of so many ppl spent, but 
hardly becoming a mainstream.
NickA
30-Nov-2012
[4471]
It's hard to imagine that the native UI interface would meet with 
criticism from any main stream developers - by definition, it's the 
_native UI.  Doing things that way just takes longer to port.  I 
honestly don't care which way it goes, as long as there's a usable 
GUI system with a _productive syntax_.
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4472]
So, you want something like VID/View, that looks great, and works 
on mobile platforms. Is that correct Petr?
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4473x2]
Kaj - I feel free to find some resources for someone to port View 
to Red, playing on your nerves, as it will quickly again becoming 
more popular :-)
Gregg - no, I want ALSO View/VID, which is being kind of dismissed 
here both by Doc and Kaj :-)
Kaj
30-Nov-2012
[4475]
My nerves are fine. It's yours I'm converned about :-)
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4476]
How is that different from what I said (and I think they agree that 
you can write it if you want)?
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4477]
I tried to attract Cyphre, unfortunatelly he has new View like engine 
in mind, which would require some extensive resources to spend to 
get that. And I don't have such resources, so I am "a bit" nervous 
:-)
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4478]
That is, if Doc creates your dream GUI system, what is it?
NickA
30-Nov-2012
[4479]
I should have asked the GUI question in private ;)
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4480]
:-)
Kaj
30-Nov-2012
[4481]
No problem, Petr will complain no matter what
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4482]
Doc starts with a kind of dialect - some midd level. Kind of what 
Henrik called top-down, but with good thinking ahead. you mostly 
write VID-like dialect, which would get (not necessarily 100% automatically) 
compiled to target platforms. So on Android, it looks like andorid, 
etc., but also - for small embedded - either html5, or View ...
DocKimbel
30-Nov-2012
[4483]
My understanding is that most people stick to one desktop OS, they 
are not switching OSes whole day (that is just a very small minority 
of computer users). Having close integration with OS can bring many 
advantages over a custom GUI like hardware acceleration or close 
integration with OS/desktop services. There are still cases where 
a custom cross-platform GUI could be good enough, so a View-like 
engine for Red is welcome. I just think that the default GUI option 
should be to provide an OS-integrated user experience.
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4484]
Ah, I thought so, could count minutes before someone comes with "hardware 
acceleration claim". We havent ever utilised full speed of new View 
engine in R3, yet we want it even faster :-) But understood, some 
mobile devices might not have FPU or so ...
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4485]
So on Android, it looks like andorid, etc., but also - for small 
embedded - either html5, or View ...

That sounds like what Doc is proposing.
Kaj
30-Nov-2012
[4486]
I found it to be slow
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4487]
Doc - I used some programming languages on Windows - Visual Objects, 
Delphi ... button here, button there, button with bitmap. Wait - 
CA-VO did not have such a class - almost impossible to obtain such 
a feature. Then I show few small demos of View2 from the desktops, 
and those big guys come like - huh, how is that so easily possible?
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4488]
Petr, don't lose focus. The train is going in your direction. Just 
get out of the way. :-)
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4489]
So - just please show me a bubbless demo written using GTK. Do you 
have a widted for that? And that's my point.
Kaj
30-Nov-2012
[4490]
:-)
DocKimbel
30-Nov-2012
[4491]
I want ALSO View/VID, which is being kind of dismissed here both 
by Doc and Kaj :-)

 Absolutly not, I'm just saying that I will build a native GUI solution 
 first, a View-like solution is not my priority but it is welcome. 
 If nobody makes a View-like engine, nor wraps R3/GUI engine, I will 
 consider making one myself when I will have more time.
Kaj
30-Nov-2012
[4492]
I've already said that I will make one, but Petr keeps maintaining 
the reverse
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4493]
Petr, do you see that we're all in very close agreement here?
DocKimbel
30-Nov-2012
[4494]
We havent ever utilised full speed of new View engine in R3, yet 
we want it even faster :-)


What I just say is that you have it for free when using native widgets.
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4495]
OK, I need to work 32 hours a day to contract Cyphre, to make it 
a bit higher priority :-)
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4496]
Great. We'll all appreciate that. And you see, now, that we all agree?
Pekr
30-Nov-2012
[4497]
Doc - I know - what I want is - free form GUI, not necessarily a 
native GUI, which is mostly good for forms like apps imo. Or just 
please show me particles.r 1.6KB demo rewritten to GTK :-)
Kaj
30-Nov-2012
[4498]
That's no problem if I bind the canvas widget, but I'd rather do 
it in Enlightenment
Gregg
30-Nov-2012
[4499]
Is this helping at all Doc? I'd like to say this has run its course 
right now, and we should let Doc focus, and others can comment later.