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World: r4wp

[Ann-Reply] Reply to Announce group

Pekr
28-May-2013
[2031x2]
Well, I have mixed feelings ... Carl simply gave up on Rebol and 
its message imo ... felt strange: " I'm no longer in the mode of 
convincing the world about Rebol. I've learned a lot over the last 
couple years in the trenches." ..... later .... "So, I know really 
well now that Rebol is not for every developer.... but it would get 
more interest if R3+GUI was easy to download an get running on a 
variety of those devices on your list."
As for why he does not use R3 at Roku, he confirmed that it might 
be difficult to mix various IPs of several companies ....
Geomol
28-May-2013
[2033]
@Pekr, do you think, that's the full story?
Pekr
28-May-2013
[2034]
I don't know, what do you mean? Full story of what? Well, maybe I 
will say it arrogantly - but Carl faced the reality we all were facing 
in our companies - if your tool does not fit the company's toolset, 
you might be tolerated, if it is open sourced or free. I remember 
my issues with my boss, trying to convince him why should I buy /Command 
to get access to shell and ODBC, if other free tools can do it. And 
that was it - REBOL lived in isolation and Carl, joining Roku, found 
out about the outer world working under different conditions of reality 
:-)
Geomol
28-May-2013
[2035]
So less of "mix various IPs".
Pekr
28-May-2013
[2036]
I expect so, but that is just my speculation ....
Geomol
28-May-2013
[2037x3]
I got the same feeling.
But you see, since Carl is the creator of REBOL and has access to 
the sources, the situation is different than with you and your boss.
I had the same argument as you with a boss of a company, I did free-lance 
work for. I was able to convince them to buy REBOL/Command though, 
because the develop time went down by a factor 10 or so.


A bit along the same type or argument, I convinced a business partner 
of that company to implement XML-RPC instead of using SOAP based 
calling method across the internet. It saved us months of development 
time, and the other company could implement XML-RPC feature within 
days.


Just keep on arguing, also from a cost viewpoint. Don't give in! 
:) It pays.
Pekr
28-May-2013
[2040]
Geomol - my boss bought me an SDK, because he know, that I would 
not program in anything else. It was not so expensive after all, 
not for a company running systems like SAP :-) I personally bought 
SDKs, Several command versions (prior to SDK), Pro version, and one 
IOS for 2K USD .... but nowadays I can state, that sponsoring stuff 
on voluntary basis is even better. So I actually put more money in 
Red than into REBOL SDK for e.g. :-)
GrahamC
28-May-2013
[2041]
I didn't know you did coding
Pekr
28-May-2013
[2042x4]
Some conversion bridges, simple stuff - pullind data from multiple 
systems, generating excel files (via html) for customers, website 
generation to intranet, automated notifications, etc.
Data migration from our system (used by cca 80 ppl) to SAP was all 
done/prepared by REBOL ....
I was so fast in pulling data, parsing CSVs, etc., that noone objected 
.....
Well, as i thik about it, it adheres to what just Geomol stated - 
fast prototyping, they could not beat me easily ....
Endo
28-May-2013
[2046]
Ah it's nice to read Carl's posts on stackoverflow, I hope he answers 
some questions time to time..
Pekr
28-May-2013
[2047x2]
What is more interesting imo is Carl attending a devcon. I believe 
guys will discuss many ideas about further Rebol development ....
I have following strategy to discuss - Carl always liked to work 
on HW too - Amiga, Viscorp set-top-box. Now he is with Roku, gaining 
important experience. Now let's say Roku goes under, some investor 
appears, Carl buys AmigaIP and we will get first Rebol/Amiga device 
out :-)
GrahamC
28-May-2013
[2049]
You're fantasizing!
Pekr
28-May-2013
[2050]
yes, running on coffee :-)
Geomol
28-May-2013
[2051]
And then we build a spaceship and take a trip to the Moon. I always 
wanted that!
Pekr
28-May-2013
[2052]
OK, I build a telescope for our observatory, to watch you walking 
on the moon :-)
Geomol
28-May-2013
[2053]
Yeah, we can't have, people say, it didn't happen. ;)
Bo
29-May-2013
[2054x3]
I have Amiga running on my cell phone.  It doesn't have quite the 
luster it used to.  In the 90's, I owned a large Amiga store and 
I did all my work on Amiga computers.  It was so much nicer than 
PCs.  However, there are now hundreds of Linux and BSD distributions, 
not to mention Windows, Mac and Android (yes, also a Linux distribution). 
 What I really miss is simplicity and the ability to easily customize 
a system to do only what you want and no more in a lightweight and 
efficient manner.
For this reason, I like Arch Linux.  Small, fast, easy to customize 
to do exactly what you want.  And it runs Rebol.
But I use Windows 8 at work, Windows XP and Windows 7 at home, and 
Linux for development and specialized tasks (like file serving).
Geomol
29-May-2013
[2057]
You use Arch Linux on your Raspberry Pi, right? How's that going?
Bo
29-May-2013
[2058]
I use Arch Linux on Raspberry Pi.  It works very well.  However, 
I have switched to Raspbian at present as some of the components 
I need are not yet available on Arch Linux and I don't have time 
to port and test them.  However, my project is almost ready for the 
first site test.
Geomol
29-May-2013
[2059]
I wonder, if it's worth getting a Raspberry Pi at this point and 
try compile World to it.
Pekr
30-May-2013
[2060]
Raspberry Pi is just medial thing. That thing is just small computer, 
nothing more imo, much hyped, than usefull, unless you build some 
kind of min-pc or player. IMO something like Beagle Bone (Black), 
with many IO pins, is more interesting. BTW - during SO chat, Carl 
mentioned he is getting Beagle Bone Black. That's imo, where Rebol 
could find some niche - embedded, automatition, etc.
Bo
30-May-2013
[2061x2]
The main difference between the Beagle Bone Black and the Raspberry 
Pi is the manufacturer of the system on a chip (SoC).  RasPi is Broadcom 
and Beagle Bone is Texas Instruments (TI).  The Beagle Bone Black 
has a faster processor (1GHz vs. 700MHz), but the RasPi can usually 
be reliably overclocked to 1GHz.  They both have a lot of I/O pins. 
 The RasPi is also a little cheaper.
If you want real power for a little more ($89), get this:

http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php


Quad-core 1.7GHz Arm-A9 processor, 2GB on-board RAM, 10/100 Ethernet, 
2xUSB2.0 ports, Micro HDMI, Micro SD card slot, hardware audio codec, 
run Android 4.x or Ubuntu 12.10

Pretty hot specs for the price!
Geomol
30-May-2013
[2063]
DC Input is statet as 5V / 2A. That's 10W. The Amiga1200 used 20W, 
if I remember correctly. Not bad for these new small computers. Ras 
Pi may use half of the ODROID, so about 5W.


A cluster of computers each running at a couple Watts, that would 
be something! :)
Kaj
30-May-2013
[2064]
When you buy such a bare board, you have to build a computer around 
it, which makes it much more expensive and uses a lot more power
Andreas
30-May-2013
[2065]
RPi runs at ~3.5W in my experience. But performance / watt efficiency 
of a RPi is rather low.
Pekr
30-May-2013
[2066]
Bo - imo those are really different purpose boards. Beagle is geared 
more towards an automatition - all those pins properly exposed directly 
on the board. Also - look at the number of "capes" available. I would 
not use Raspberry Pi for embedded ...
Bo
30-May-2013
[2067x2]
Agreed.  However, for some applications there has been more developed 
for the Raspberry Pi, which makes it easier to develop a finished 
product, especially if a lot of I/O is not needed.
Kaj: For embedded applications, all you need to add to the ODROID 
is a MicroSD card with the OS on it.  That doesn't add any higher 
power requirements.  If you want to add a hard drive, DVD-RW, monitor, 
etc. to it, of course it will take more power.  However, those aren't 
needed for most embedded applications.
Kaj
30-May-2013
[2069x2]
Yes, but John compared it to an Amiga 1200, so you have to take into 
account the floppy drive it had and such. It was used as a personal 
computer, so you have to add a monitor, keyboard, mouse, perhaps 
a hard drive, etc.
We're picking up written off PCs that are hardly used for less than 
a Raspberry, so the price advantage is not that clear cut
GrahamC
30-May-2013
[2071]
power savings?
Kaj
30-May-2013
[2072]
Not much if you need those extra peripherals
Cyphre
31-May-2013
[2073]
My laptop takes 6-8W during normal desktop+internet usage on battery. 
But can take up to 80W when running at full CPU/GFX performance when 
running a 3d game :-)
Henrik
31-May-2013
[2074]
RPI would be size and weight advantage. Hide it under a table. Hard 
to do with a 10 year old desktop for the same price.
Bo
31-May-2013
[2075]
The Pi can also be used as a cheap thin-client.  Just hook it up 
to the back of a monitor and have it run a remote desktop connection 
on boot. :-)
Kaj
31-May-2013
[2076x2]
I've hidden several nine year old desktops under my desk. :-) If 
you get the small desktop models, they're not that big. And with 
those boards, you have loose boards, loose power supplies and lots 
of cables to hide
The Raspberry is actually on top of my desk to protect all that loose 
stuff :-)
Henrik
31-May-2013
[2078]
I actually wanted to use RPIs in that project I am still a part of, 
instead of those old desktops, but no REBOL or Red and won't be relevant 
when I'm leaving the project.
Kaj
31-May-2013
[2079x2]
Do you mean you can't use REBOL or Red? They're both available on 
Raspberry
For such mobile systems, I think it would be better to use those 
new mini PCs inside a USB stick. They're very similar to a Raspberry, 
you get them in a case, and they can feed off a monitor