World: r3wp

Henrik - don't even try the old crap on me again :-( The reason why 
Carl started new GUI was because of Gab's GUI was not all that easy.


Henrik - I believe you will fail explain technical reason, why it 
prevents proper skinning


An exact failure in understanding why face hacking is not welcome. 
Gab's GUI was not easy due to a number of layers needed to describe 
the look and feel separately, as well as requiring you to handle 
GOBs manually. But it supported applying proper meaning of styles, 
because Gabriele had the same goal as me. Carls does too and RM Asset's 
does this even more. We just have to take advantage of it.


Have you never had to fix someone's MS Word document, so that TOC 
generation, links, indexes, headlines, etc. could be understood by 
Word, because they had resorted to manipulating the words directly 
with colors and style, instead of using Word's style system? This 
is exactly the same problem. You will be teaching beginners that 
their layouts won't scale properly for exactly the same reasons. 
Many people therefore never really learn to create correctly formatted 
Word documents.

Henrik - what is the difference in not not providing option to set 
a button size, yet like Rebolek showed us, it can be done in the 
options block? I mean - what is the difference for the skinning system? 
And also - button is a rather promitive widget, we don't allow its 
sizing, yet more complex styles as panels can be sized, skinned most 
probably too?

The difference is applying meaning at the correct level, the layout, 
dimensions, colors, skin information at the style level, where it 
belongs.

I don't want to hack styles in the R2 way, going style/path way. 
I can see, that those layers are wisely designed, but not allowing 
any size button is imo oversight, and it does not imo break the rules 
you describe in your MS Word TOC example. User is simply not hacking 
it. All I wanted was to "export" max-size, not the init-size.

need to check-out from the hotel, later ...

The right way to do big button is to use stylize and make your own 
big button. You definitely not want to go thru your code at some 
later date and change all 100x100 to 200x200 for example.

using stylize must be as effortless as possible, though. :-)

That's right. But I think it can hardly be much easier than it's 
right now:


>> stylize [big-button: button [facets: [init-size: 100x100 max-size: 
100x100]]]
>> view [big-button "BIG"]

that's rather easy, but not easy enough. Still a different concept. 
You guys act like button is a text, and it is not :-) If I will have 
whole screen of the same buttons, I might use stylize, e.g. for the 
calculator widget, as an example, becuase constantly repeat button 
30x30 is not convenient for me. But it still does not mean, that 
ocassionally wanting to have button a bit differently sized does 
a damage. Do you think users are crazy and will make each button 
differently sized, just because they can? :-) (Well, as for MS Word 
files, some users are able to create completly twisted texts, bu 
still - that is a text, difficult to restyle ... while we are talking 
GUI here.

Now if I would think about comparing R3 GUI to html/css, then I am 
not able to compare it in my head, but doesn't inline CSS allow to 
override class setting?

Rebolek - I agree, there's hardly any way of how to further simplify 
'stylize :-)

Ocassionaly having bit differently sized button sounds like inconsitent 
UI to me.

Yes, CSS allows this using STYLE, and it gets painful, when you start 
doing that, riddling HTML with CSS code. The reasons are the same 
here by avoiding to apply proper meaning to the HTML code, when using 
STYLE.

So, I had a look at BUTTON source and button has init-size in options, 
so this is bug and [button "BIG" 100x100] should work. I will fix 
it.

I am talking about apps like - http://www.ab-x.cz/gallery/tch1.jpg
, http://www.vseobal.cz/pic/S5kasa2.jpg

That looks more like a job for the resize engine than the button 
itself.

Rebolek, thanks for confirming it is a bug :-)

REBOL - maybe a simple bug, did not investigate it yet, but you might 
missed my report, as there is lot of a chatter here lately:

 view [doc "test"]

- doubles the content ...

REBOL = Rebolek, damn :-)

DOC works? I'm very surprised, this style should be removed, I think.

Henrik, I don't think Cash screens resizes;-)

So simple Doc style displaying make-doc format is not going to be 
there?

Oldes, for layout, span, etc. This is covered by the resizing engine.

No, it's going to be there, but it won't be this current DOC style 
(which is some strange format anyway).

Also - one question to the text style - in Carl's GUI (at least that 
is my undersanding from the demo) it accepted the block of rich-text 
dialect? That is not so with R3 GUI, probably an intention?

I would like that the finished doc style supports images, tables 
and enough features to allow direct rendering of MakeDoc documents. 
This should simplify creating a documentation system, where we don't 
need to rely on browsers, when using browser-less platforms.

aha, so more complex issue ... I will remove it from the demo then, 
replacing it by some simple text style ...

(This could be a third party project?)

Hah!

Kaj - hah to what? :-)

I think that basic DOC style can be really simple and that it just 
will parse makedoc format to R3GUI layout.

So - I should forget Doc, right? Because I wanted to find the reason 
for it to doubling the content, so I wanted to fix it. If it is going 
to be removed, that would be waste of time ...

Hah to defining large subprojects and expecting someone else to do 
them

I prefer to start with small things :-)

Wise

why would it be large?

Pekr yes.

Henrik - there's no why imo yet :-) From my POV it is very preliminary, 
and I would orientiate myself to:

- adapting existing styles to new R3 GUI engine

- adding styles most commercial guis will need - table, tree, tabs

- be sure all styles behave in a platform compatible way (especially 
area)
- reskinning/respacing the elements

- add support for ctrl-tab at low level to switch between the tabs
- fix all hard R3 crashes

later:

- add support for accelerator keys, but visually, and in the code 
(requires rich-text, most probably autogenerated, to underline the 
letter, but it could be done a different way to - e.g. displaying 
boxes with accelerator keys upon the styles and Alt key press)

- improve the text quality, that is NOT ACCEPTABLE for the 21st century!

even later:

- add some funky styles as Doc to make documentations, wikis, etc. 
:-)
- HW acceleration support where possible.

A system that you let someone else write is never large. Yet I would 
say a documentation system is a large task

I just have to make my notes to the "button size" thread:


- "We can't easily make 50x50 button for e.g.?" - you can, just respect 
the fact, that every face has got a Max-size, and if you want to 
make something bigger, you need to specify the Max-size

- "you have init-size as an option, yet it is ignored,or totally 
twisted" - it is a resizing rule, that you can resize everything 
only to the Max-size limit; of course, you can make the Max-size 
bigger, but, if you forget, nobody can be cleverer than you are knowing, 
what is the Max-size you want to use

- '   view [button "ok" options [max-size: 200x200]]' - of course 
it works, allowing you to resize the button as specified

- 'So, I had a look at BUTTON source and button has init-size in 
options, so this is bug and [button "BIG" 100x100] should work. I 
will fix it.' - only over my dead body, the basic resizing rule is 
to respect the Max-size

only over my dead body

 - that should not be a problem, we meet today personally, no? :-))) 
 ... just a joke :-)

LOOL

Ladislav - maybe what Rebol thought about was to actually exposing 
max-size in an options block? Is that possible?

Rebolek has shown you how, even your code would allow you to resize 
the button

Now there is init-size, and my opinion is, that it is confusing, 
if the init-size is possible, yet it does nothing obvious. In such 
a case, I prefer to error-out at layout level, not allowing even 
init-size being specified inline ...

Kaj, perhaps this is the same misunderstanding as for host kit work. 
It seems that many times, when Carl or RM Asset offers a task to 
the community, the response is negative.

Bolek, I don't understad what 'bug' you found in button??? The init-size 
in options is OK

That is the basic resizing rule - no error, just resize respecting 
the Max-size. The resizing algorithm shall not be cleverer than you 
are, changing the Max-size sometimes, reading your mind.

It is correct that you can't do button 50x50 because the button definition 
is:
	facets: [
		init-size: 130x24
		max-size: 230x24
		min-size: 80x24
		....
	]

So as Bolek said..either make own 'fat-button' style or change the 
size related facets inline in your layout definiton.